Q&A | Unorthodox + 3 more reader questions
It's been a minute since we did a Q&A! So I rounded up a few from my inbox for today.
I'd love to hear what you thought about Unorthodox!
-Lucy
spoilers ahead, just so you know
This book was fascinating and sad in equal measure and that's reminiscent of how I felt after reading Tara Westover's Educated, which is a story of growing up in an extreme Mormon home.
Fascinating: because it is incredible to me that lives have been lived this way, in my lifetime.
(Westover and Feldman are both younger than me. But as I read their stories, it sounded as though they had somehow grown up in the past.)
Sad: because, oh, the pain these women experienced as a result of the oppressive fundamental sects they were born into. Yikes.
I totally get that most Mormon and Orthodox Jewish families do not operate the way these fundamentalist ones do.
It's just that no matter the religion, the extreme fundamentalists seem to always end up being rather cult-like and abusive, particularly to the women.
(For the record, I definitely count extreme Christian fundamentalists in with this lot; I see heart-breaking examples of power, control, abuse, and trauma there as well.)
I felt so happy as I read the story of Feldman's escape, and I was happy to see that her ex-husband was eventually able to leave as well. I remember feeling the same when Tara Westover was able to get out and make her own life; I breathed a sigh of relief for her!
Feldman recounts a pivotal moment in her story on 09.09.09, a date that caught my eye because that's the day my stillborn niece arrived.
I remember that day vividly, and it's odd to think about what was happening to Feldman on that day; I'm still getting used to reading memoirs that happen in my lifetime.
Like...whoa. I'm reading about something in a book and I can tell you exactly what I was doing on that date.
I don't know if that makes sense. But it feels wild to me!
One last thought: another interesting common theme between Educated and Unorthodox is how reading played a role in freeing both women from their former lives.
In both cases, it expanded their horizons and broadened their thinking about what their lives might look like, and ultimately, that led to them walking away to make a new, free life for themselves.
I noticed that everybody uses flat-sided jars in their yogurt-making. Is it okay to use rounded-side mason jars though?
-Myrna
Yup, that should work out just fine. I've used all manner of jars for my yogurt making, and the shape hasn't seemed to matter in the slightest.
I say use what you have!
You taught piano for years… Did you find this easy to manage while home-educating your kids? I teach voice and piano, I have two young boys, and we have also embarked on the homeschooling journey in the last couple of years. I have found it very hard to keep up my own skills/have time to invest in my students while also raising my kids.
People always comment how great it is to be able to work from home like this, and assume that (because I work in the arts) I’m just living out my passion…both of which I find to be inaccurate assumptions in many ways!
I’d be curious to hear how your experience was (and maybe why you stopped teaching?).
-Annette
In short, no, I did not find it easy to manage! I did fine when my children were all younger and homeschooling was not so labor-intensive.
But by the time I had all four kids doing school, piano teaching started to feel unmanageable.
Plus, this was at the time when Mr. FG was working a 2 pm-10 pm schedule, and the combo of that and homeschooling was too much for me.
Mercifully, that was also around the time that my blog started to earn money, so I quit piano teaching and blogged instead.
Blogging is so, so, so much more flexible than piano teaching, and it worked better for flexing around Mr. FG's odd work hours as well.
I don't know if that's a very helpful answer, but at least you know that you are not alone in finding this challenging.
Your use-it-up lunches… I have made myself many an odd meal over the years (and I agree – an egg or some cheese) can make anything into a meal!
But when your kids were younger and not finding their own breakfast or lunch, did you also make up odd combos for them? I can’t see this going over well in my house…
-Annette
(She had two questions!)
When my kids were younger and I did more of the work of preparing meals for them, I did often try to do so with an eye to preventing waste.
For instance:
- I made smoothies
- I heated up leftovers for them
- I made sandwiches for them to use up what needed to be used
- I used slightly sour milk to make pudding for them
- I made French toast casserole with dry bread
- I made croutons for their salad
- I made rice pudding with leftover rice
- I used up dairy goods in bread that I made
Basically, I felt free to offer them any food-waste-fighting foods that they would enjoy!
Also, sometimes I would make a snacky meal for them; odds and ends of cheese, fruits, veggies, and so on.
But the very vegetable-heavy bowls I make for myself?
I didn't make those for my kids! Even to this day, no one else in my house would be interested.
(Except for Lisey. And she is at aviation mechanic school!)
This is an example of what I wrote about in my post, "Care about something? Be prepared to do most of the work."
I care the most about food waste at my house, so if there's something not universally appetizing that needs to be eaten? That's gonna fall on me, which is ok. 🙂
____________
Readers, feel free to weigh in on any of these questions!
P.S. Got a question? Feel free to email me.
I had the same reaction to the timing of Uneducated, and I spent some time thinking about what I was doing as Tara Westover was growing up. Thank you for articulating this sense so well. I also agree that Uneducated was amazing and worthwhile, but not an easy or "light" read. It was definitely worth reading, and I will now order Unorthodox.
Kristen, I’ve read “Educated”’and watched the Unorthodox series- and loved them both!
I agree- very inspiring and pretty amazing that both women escaped these life situations.
Have you read “The Glass Castle” by Jeanette Wells? Similar in some ways to “Educated”. She’s a very engaging writer
@Kim from Philadelphia, The Glass Castle is such an interesting book - I cant say good because it is so brutal at times but I still often think of that story, as I do about Educated and marvel at hot how the authors triumphed over such adversity. The Glass Castle is well woth a read.
@Val, and @Kim from Philadephia,
A second vote for The Glass Castle. The "prequel" (so to speak) is Half Broke Horses, which is Jeannette Walls' grandmother's life story. Two different stories, but gives some insight into Jeannette's mom's early years, and her relationship with *her* mother. Both books are fascinating.
Yes! I read that one a few years ago, after finishing Educated.
Another vote for The Glass Castle. Along with Educated, it helped me appreciate my own upbringing even more. I always knew I had it good but, holy wow, I didn't know just how good until reading of others' experiences.
I struggle with memoirs sometimes, and "Educated" was one of them. Memoirs are, of course, all about one particular person's experience of the world, but that necessarily means that it's a skewed view. Which is not an indictment of the genre, but I always want to know the other sides of every story, the other perspectives, especially in negative stories. Like, what would her dad's memories and motivations be for all those incidents that were so traumatizing for her? Or her siblings, especially the ones that didn't seem to struggle as much with their lifestyle?
That said, it was certainly a riveting book. I haven't read "Unorthodox," but maybe I'll see if I can find it. Lately I've been even less likely to read anything sad or disturbing than I usually am, because I just don't need to add any of that to my life right now, but I might try it.
@kristin @ going country, I agree completely. Was it “million little pieces” that was found to be not completely true? I’m a little skeptical about what people remember, and often want to know more.
Kristen—do you read books other than non-fiction? That’s all I’ve seen here before :).
Very rarely I read some fiction! But I just tend to enjoy nonfiction more.
@kristin @ going country, not really addressing you- but- in a lot of the “victim” genre books, obviously memories are very one-sided, reliant on unclear memories, and they have to be dramatic to sell. Sometimes they really come off as … unbelievable. Having some experience as a victim/survivor myself, and work experience in the psychotherapy field, I really can often see how these terrible life situations could begin to define a person’s view of herself in a negative way. I know a few similar stories where with time and good therapy, the person was able to say “well, yes, maybe that’s not exactly how it was…but now, having an publisher/editor telling me I can’t retract or give interviews anymore, have to write the sequel, so go out and do more dysfunctional stuff, or dredge up other people’s vague memories, I’m really caught up in the attention and adrenaline”. Yes, like A Million Little Pieces! I was glad when he was “forced” to admit that he and his editors had fabricated a bunch of it, although claiming “oh, we’ll, I guess I forgot”. I guess I’m kind of “over” this currently very popular genre. I’m really liking best-selling, well-written novels from the 1920s- 1960s right now, from thrift shops. I gain good stuff, like wisdom and beauty, and they are much better-written, and I feel better after reading them vs. feeling frustrated and/or manipulated. Thanks for letting me vent! I’m certainly not an unsympathetic person, but I do value honesty and insight and “greater good for mankind” perspectives.
@Jenny, I recently read one of those older thrifted books-- _A Place in the Woods_ by Helen Hoover. It was so refreshingly written. Not all the intense stress of modern things. I still suspect she used the artistic license available to the genre of memoir, but it was a good read.
@Jody S., this is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about! I haven’t read it, but it looks like Helen Hoover has written several best-selling memoirs in the 1960s-70s about homesteading in Minnesota, so frugality must be part of that! Uplifting and inspiring, helps a person grow vs. ugliness and exaggeration. IMHO.
Re Kristen's point about knowing exactly where she was on that day--
as a memoirist myself (though I am so behind this year), it helps me to have been a very online person. Well, that's an awkward sentence--don't anyone buy my book! What I meant was, through email, forum posts, social media, DMs etc, all of which I saved, it's easy for me to check out what I was thinking and feeling on a certain day during my memoir's timeframe.
Oh, I can see where that would be helpful! It seems like older memoirists often rely on paper diaries, but those of us who are very online have sort of maintained an internet diary.
My oodles of digital photos also serve a similar purpose.
Wow, thank you for answering my question! I did a deep dive into the Unorthodox story because the book was so well written and answered many of my questions about the Hasidic culture. She's younger than me but yes, I agree that she seemed from another time. I am planning on reading the sequel she wrote. The Netflix series is very different (set in Germany, etc.) And stands well on its own but really isn't the same story and has fewer insights about what interior resources allowed the author to escape. I love your insight that her love of reading was a major catalyst. As I read reviews of the memoir, I noted one quibble that seems fair: she doesn't reveal the financial information about her early years on her own. Who paid for the expensive college tuition for example? On the other hand the author has explained that it was her personal blog (first written anonymously) that helped her get a book deal and also gave her the "fame" she needed to get custody of her son. Gaining custody is extremely unusual for mothers who leave this culture. Most of the time they lose their children. So, blogging for the win!
While I haven't taught music lessons from home, I can sympathize with Annette's struggle. If you were sending your kids to daycare, you would be paying the workers to care for your children, and that is all you would expect from the workers. But somehow stay at home moms (myself included) expect so much more of themselves--taking care of little ones AND cooking, cleaning, laundry, and possibly also earning a side income (which takes time and energy). I think people tend to see the sunny side of other's situations and don't consider all the challenges that come with it.
I have worked for many years now as an OT in a hospital on a prn basis and I regularly get comments from full-time coworkers who say, "it must be nice to be able to work such limited hours". Often I smile and nod but sometimes I try to gently say that there is a price attached with that privilege--I am the first to be low-censused if the caseload is low, the same base rate is paid to prn therapy staff whether you have 33 years of experience (me) or are a new grad, there are no benefits for prn beyond putting money in a retirement fund, and on and on. I'm not sure that inaccurate perceptions of your life situation will ever change (I haven't found it to be true) but if you know you are on the right path for your family's needs, then carry on with what you are doing! I wish you well!
I read an excerpt of Uneducated and it actually made me anxious because of the memories it brought back. My schools were very inadequate, and although I am intelligent and was well-read as a child, I had to teach myself so much. College was a constant struggle to build the missing foundation while keeping up and making good grades. It was so difficult and exhausting that I can't bear to read the whole book and relive that.
I think that makes lots of sense; you already lived it, so why would you want to relive it through a book? There are too many books in the world for us to read ones that aren't helpful or enjoyable!
And I want to give your younger self a hug and a pat on the back; you are a tough cookie to have persevered like that.
@Kristen, you are so sweet. I do look on making it through as one of the big achievements of my life. It's made a lot of other hard things in life look do-able because I know the grit is there.
@Ruby,I am proud of you and so sorry for what you went through. I had a tough life too and have gone on to have my own family that I cherish and dare not treat them the way I was treated.
This is related to yesterday's post, but I thought there is a better chance of you seeing it today. Those American Giant tshirts - are they hip length? I hate short tshirts and appreciate a little extra length. I can't tell from the models. Thanks!!!
Oh, all of the comments come through on my blog dashboard to the same place, so I see ones on new posts and old posts equally.
So, the cotton tees I have from AG are their original design, and they are very long. I have a long torso, and they are sufficiently long even for me.
I haven't bought one of their newer tees, though, since my old ones have lasted for so long. Which, I guess, is kind of the point! So I don't know exactly how the newer ones are cut.
Is there any helpful info in the reviews? There are usually quite a few reviews on AG's site, so those might be worth a browse.
Also, these tees from Amazon are definitely not short: https://www.thefrugalgirl.com/tuesday-tip-amazon-essentials-tshirts-are-great/
The Sound of Gravel is another heartbreaking but powerful book on the same vein as the ones you discussed here!
For what it's worth, I was unable to finish Uneducated. I'm not strong enough? — or something. The car wreck did me in and that was that.
Working at home with kids at home is simultaneously so awesome and so tough. The ebb and flow of freelance doesn't really let a person pick when to work; if you want a return client, you have to do the work in a reliable way, no matter the timing. In that way it's kind of like keeping to a set schedule of piano lessons. I've been lucky and haven't really screwed anything up royally ... yet.
@Karen., I haven't even tried to read either of the above mentioned books, I really can't take reading about any kind of abuse. A couple of decades ago I tried "twice" to read Angela's Ashes. Both times I had to stop quite quickly. Same here, I'm a person who gets really upset at other people's pain, even when I don't know them. And I don't consider that a good thing.
(I ttly mistyped; it was Educated that I had to stop.)
@Anne, I understand completely. It's almost like reading it allows the imagination to bring it too close, or something. It's rough.
Gosh, had I known you were doing questions, I would have sent mine in! How are you finding the new phone service? And what network is it on? I cannot find that on their website.
And I loved Orthodox the movie. I used to live in NY and knew of different sects of religion, but none that were so different than others. It was an education.
I was struck by the resiliency and determination of the young women who wrote Educated and Unorthodox. I’ve often wondered why some individuals when faced with adversity and hopelessness are able to find a way forward, yet others are not.
@Bee, Years ago there was a research project that found that the kids who made it out of tough circumstances had two things---they were intelligent and there had been one person in there lives who convinced them that they were worth more. The person did not have to be a long term contact, sometimes only a teacher who had been with them for just a few months, but somehow they connected and their influence continued in the kid's mind even after they left. The kids with only one or the other---intellect or a concerned adult---didn't seem to make it, it took both.
@Lindsey, their, not there lives. I wish I could blame auto correct for that one, but, alas, it was all me.
@Lindsey, this would be an interesting study to read. We don’t all begin life in the same place; but with love, encouragement, education and determination, I think that we can change the direction of our lives and the lives of others. I guess that I’m a bit of an idealist!
Unorthodox is really hard for me. In part because I have family living that way, and me definitely leaving that part, but also because it’s showing in full public eyes everything that very private in Jewish life. I understand the fascination but it disturb me as well. Sometimes I think people want to see Jewish life at his most folklorist, almost like a weird tribe with whom you have very little in common. Also the very Hasidic life is very much a new thing, I am old enough to recall the 60 and how people balance more, not as extreme as it is now.
Yes, what is described in Unorthodox seems pretty extreme to me; I know there are lots of Orthodox Jews who are not nearly so strict.
It's always the extreme ends of religion that get controlling and sometimes abusive.
@Bella Lewin,
The odd thing is how so many of the Ultra Orthodox, like the Satmars or Lubavitchers, hate each other.
@Rose,
Well Chabad is a very different movement then the Satmar. Satmar is build on tradition, but a false tradition, the Satmar where not like this 50 years ago, women did drive, women would swim, have more of a outside life. Chabad has a almost proselitic view of Jews , and try to gain more followers by sending envoys in the world.
But it’s like Shia and Sunni, or some Protestant and evangelical, also don’t put socialist and communist in one room, and keep the Trotski’s away at all time.
But in Jewish life, many things are keep away from public eyes, there is a strong sense of privacy regarding family life. And seeing those in full exposure just doesn’t feel right somehow. But that’s purely a personal feeling.
@Bella Lewin, I appreciate your comment. Unorthodox was very intimate in letting the reader into the real operations and dynamics of a family and culture. I guess that's why I feel like it answered a lot of questions for me. If I wrote a memoir about my family I think I would try to be as clear and forthcoming as this author. But I honor your misgivings and they make sense. I did think she went into detail about how much her sect's treatment of women had changed since the 1960s, becoming increasingly restrictive. I thought she did a pretty good job of talking about how much social support is available to people who are able to fit in and comply with the rules.
@Bella Lewin, I think the fascination is less about Jewish sects than it is about extremist religions in any form. The most extreme Mormons or Catholics are fascinating to people outside those groups. I have not read any memoirs of women who left the extreme versions of Islam, but I am sure they would be equally fascinating to some folks.
I’m trying to work my full time job (from home) and provide childcare for my youngest this week and it is a challenge! It’s like doing two jobs at once and neither of them is getting done very well. I’m just glad it’s only for this week!
For food waste with kids, I take a similar approach, reheating dinner leftovers for them and they are always up for fruit so always easy to use up any fruit before it goes bad. It also helps that the 1 year old eats anything right now, so anything the oldest doesn’t finish goes to her.
I had not read either of these books, so I have no comment on them, and I never worked from home, either, so I really have nothing to add to that question either. That's unusual!
I have read some comments on the show based on that book, in which some women criticized it and said the sect (is sect the correct word?) was totally mis-characterized by the show, but since I've not read the book or seen the show, I've got no feeling on that, one way or the other.
Kristen, I recently got "Unorthodox" from the library due to your recommendation. It is a fascinating book. I was up late reading it last night. I will definitely have to check out "Educated" as well. Thanks for the book reviews.
Ooh! I like the idea of using slightly soured milk to make pudding. That would be a fun treat for the kids. Thanks!
I read Educated 2x. It is hard for me to read but it gives me a new perspective. I think there was some crying on my part both times I read it. I like it because it shows her resilience in the face of her past trauma and up bringing. She is a strong and intelligent woman and I love that. The book truely shows the importance of education which was something my parents drilled into me from a young age. My dad always told me that my education was one thing no one could ever take away. My parents sacrificed so my brother and I could have what they felt was the best education and I am grateful for that.
I read Educated two times as well, and I almost never read books twice!
Thanks for the recommendation of reading Unorthodox it was very interesting to see how her culture was so different from when I was growing up. I am so glad it had a great ending to it and now she is a free woman with her child! I did not enjoy the movie as it was nothing hardly at all like the book, only some parts were covered, oh well!! Yes Educated was a great read and similar to Unorthodox, too.
It's not fair and I mean no disrespect, but it's still a man's world. Hopefully with books like these, it will enlighten those who need it and change things.
And it seems doubly so when you are a woman living in some sort of extreme religious community; the man's world thing really, really holds true there.
Very conservative or fundamentalist ends of any religion are (probably) characterized by literal readings of their scriptures. If those scriptures were written many centuries or millennia ago, and were then interpreted by male leadership, it isn't likely that women are going to come out with power.
A continual balancing act for any set of beliefs is how much to follow precisely the founding documents, and how much to adapt them to the present age without losing their identity.
@Heidi Louise,
I was going to say, that holds true for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, but probably not for other religions like Buddhism, when I googled and apparently there are now also fundie Buddhists.
Huh. Now that is a thing I have not imagined!
@Heidi Louise,
I so agree with this.
@Heidi Louise, I have often wondered if the interpretations were to have been made by an honest man with no agenda, what would this world look like?
@Jennifer, That is certainly a question for the ages! Impossible to answer, (because it is impossible to be agenda-less), yet intriguing. Modern scholarship of women in the early Christian church provides some ideas, as women were equally acknowledged with men as disciples, while living in a culture where men and women normally were separated.
I just finished listening to The Glass Castle (I had read it many years ago). It is another example of a memoir of someone that escaped their crazy childhood mainly through education. Jeannette Walls is somewhat older, born in 1960, and her father did want her to be educated but mainly to his way of thinking. I have read all those books and they are eye opening for someone that grew up in a "boring" family.
I have concluded there are much worse fates than living in a "boring" family!
Reading through the comments brings me to the plight of the women and girls in Afghanistan. Horrendous abuse of them under absolute power of men. Misogyny is rampant throughout the world and every major religion I know of is based on it. Men fearing the undeniable strength, power, and ability of women.
@Connie Abbott- Foster, you hit the nail on the head.
I'm actually just reading Educated at the moment. It's fascinating so far. I'll check out Unorthodox after reading your review and the comments, Kristen.
To Annette, I also taught piano from the time I was pregnant with my youngest until now (30 years!) There were things about it that were awesome and other things that were really hard. My kids mostly went to school, and they would come home and I would start teaching at pretty much the same time. I homeschooled my youngest for grades 5, 6 and 7, and wished I had homeschooled them all. It solves the problem of not having enough time with them, although not that of how to look after little ones while teaching. Are you a member of Piano Teacher Central? (It's a facebook group.) There have been many discussions about this on there and lots of people have some great ideas about how to manage. Good luck with your decision!
@Jem, the decision to homeschool was based partly on this reality - that private music-teaching hours would take over all the time I had with the kids outside of public school, if they attended. Interesting to hear your experience with this. And thanks for the FB group recommendation!
Well, Kristen, you didn’t solve my problems - drat! But your answers do show me that some of your struggles (with teaching) were the same and also that we approach food waste with children in a similar way. Guess those veg/cheese/egg meals will have to continue as a “mom only” thing...
Oh, but you have me worried with your comment about homeschooling becoming more work as the kids get older! I’m hoping for some aspects to get easier, at least as they gain independence in reading! It’s a great life, though, for sure.
Well, the homeschooling ebbs and flows a bit. I think the hardest time was those few years when Zoe was first starting school. All the older kids still needed a decent amount of help too, and of course, Zoe needed a lot of help.
So that was kind of the maximum effort stage of schooling. But that was only for a year or two; by the time Zoe was in second grade, she didn't need nearly as much help, I didn't have any new kindergarten students, and my older three were getting more independent.
And of course at my current stage, homeschooling is quite easy! 2/4 have graduated, Sonia is doing all community college classes at this point, and Zoe's doing a few things at home plus some tutorial classes.
So, it doesn't stay this labor-intensive forever!
Another excellent book about growing up well in spite of your parents is "The Farming Life" by Sara Frye. I finished it in a day muttering OMG the entire time.
@Candy, yeah, that’s another one that didn’t really ring true. But I was kind of excited when I saw watermelons with Fry Farms stickers on them at Jewel last week here in northeastern Illinois.