"My friend asks for frugal advice, then rejects it. Help!"
A reader wrote in with this question, and she'd love to have your input in the comments.
I have a question on how to handle a friend who has found herself in a hard life situation. After leaving a bad relationship she finds herself trying to raise 2 girls while working full time but she is having a very difficult time making ends meet. She has asked for my frugal wisdom (what I have of it) but rejects every idea I offer. Even something as simple as eating leftovers she turned her nose up at.
Eventually she made the comment that I don't even need to sacrifice because my husband makes good money. True, we are in a better place but not all frugal ways are for money alone. She keeps pestering me for more ideas but I find myself a little weary of giving more, especially after her comment.
Perhaps you or your readers might have ideas?
Thank you,
Anonymous Friend
I'm so sorry to hear that you're being placed in a difficult spot with this friend, especially when you are trying to be supportive and helpful (and she probably does need lots of support during this tough time!)
I don't know exactly how close this relationship is and how much honesty it can handle, but it sounds like you probably need to be (kindly) frank with her.
When she asks for more advice, could you say something like, "I'd love to help you, but it seems like when I offer suggestions, you don't want to take any of them. When you don't have extra money, you often have to do things that are inconvenient/hard/distasteful in order to live within your means. Do you actually want my advice? Or do you just want a listening ear? I don't want to give advice if it's not really what you want."
And maybe that will open up a conversation about what she's really looking for from you and from the relationship. She might not even know exactly what she wants, especially since she's in the midst of a traumatic and stressful situation, so perhaps a conversation could help her figure that out.
Her comment about your current financial situation seems rather irrelevant, so I'm not sure why she brought it up. A good frugal idea is a good frugal idea whether you're scraping by or are financially comfortable. Mr. FG and I aren't scraping by anymore, but that doesn't mean I'm fresh out of legitimate frugal ideas now. 😉
I hope that you're able to iron this out with some good, honest conversations, and I hope things start looking up for your friend soon.
_______________________
Alrighty, readers! How would you handle this situation? Help a fellow reader out by leaving your advice in the comments.
That is aggravating. In your shoes I would, kindly and politely, stop dispensing advice unless/until my friend showed an inclination to follow some of it. The FG's suggested script would be a very kind way to do so; you could also add that you've given her all your good ideas. Two other ways that occur to me are to give her written suggestions (perhaps via email), or direct her to some frugal sites such as this one. Then let her know that you're still willing to listen as any friend would.
As for the comment about your financial situation, I read that as likely a bit of envy and perhaps exasperation: that her friend doesn't need to make the sacrifices she does. You could follow it up in a separate conversation, raised at a time when you're both relaxed and not feeling defensive. Or you could let it go, assuming she doesn't bring it up again.
Good luck to you and your friend. I hope you guys figure out a way to address this, and that she recovers well and quickly from the bad relationship. My admiration goes to her for leaving it. That's never easy and having kids makes it even harder ... and even more important.
It sounds like her friend is struggling to find herself after such a horrible situation. Maybe she needs some space to process everything that's happened before she'll truly be ready to implement positive changes?
It seems like she's hurting, especially since she made comments about the friend's husband and finances, which shouldn't have been brought up at all, honestly. Especially when she was soliciting advice from said friend!
That said, I would have a heart to heart with her, and explain why you're wary of offering any financial advice at this time.
That's what I was wondering...maybe she's wanting a listening ear more than advice, even if she's asking for advice. In which case it would be awesome if she realized that, so that she can ask for what she truly wants.
I would tell your friend that your best frugal advice comes from "The Frugal Girl"--then give her the URL for Kristen's blog. It's often easier to take "advice" from someone you don't know in real life, plus this is a nice supportive atmosphere that makes frugal seem fun and doable. I think Kristen's cheerfulness is exactly what your friend needs.
I agree. You could also point her to other frugal websites or books.
Maybe if you had the tightwad gazette you could let her borrow it. I learned everything I needed to put me on a frugal path from that book and it sorta takes yourself out of the equation. If she really wants helps she can find most of what she needs there. However, some people just don't really want what they are asking for.
The problem with the friend, my guess anyway, is that she's on her way down and really is looking for a trampoline to bounce back immediately to where she was. The thing is, life just doesn't work that way for most people. It also sounds like she never understood money management from the beginning, which is sadly all too common here in America.
I've done full budgets for people. Some (e.g. my girlfriend who later became my wife) actually followed the advice and turned a corner while others (family members, now ex-friends) scoffed at me and went down the path of endlessly living in poverty.
So you win some and you lose some.
I agree with the comment about giving her thefrugalgirl website and that is it. It is so frustrating giving asked for advice and the person not taking it. I have a similar situation and my friend has never ever taken my asked for advice. So I just continue to love her and know that she won't take it and now I no longer give it to her. It's easier for all involved.
I guarantee a heart to heart will change nothing. What I for see is her getting defensive and even if she doesn't she will just accept what you say and continue to do the same. And then you will be frustrated all over again.
Just accept her and take care of yourself so you are not resentful.
Marinell
I hate to say it, but there are some people who will never, ever live within their means. These people are dreamers and don't live in the same reality the rest of us do. I've seen this many times, and have become exasperated myself with different people. I wouldn't spin my wheels, and I also wouldn't let her knock me either for being in a different financial situation. That's uncalled for and not a real "friend". Good luck!
I totally agree. I had an in-law who was in dire financial straits her entire life and absolutely refused any type of advice or suggestions. She was insanely jealous of everyone else's perceived good fortune and spent her life feeling sorry for herself. I gave up trying to help her on any level. It was simply useless. She was part of a couple and for years I thought they were both complicit in their poor financial habits and magical thinking. Strangely, after she died, her husband, who was super supportive of her, told me how embarrassed he was about her spendthrift habits and envious attitude. He loved her deeply and misses her, but financially, he's a different person.
SJ is right, some people just live in a different reality and they will NEVER change so my advice is either adjust your own attitude or let the friendship go.
This sounds so familiar! I agree with KS, sometimes revealing the outside sources you personally find useful are more productive than actually giving advice (even if someone asks for it outright). I had this same problem with a close friend, except it involved fitness and nutrition rather than frugality. She constantly sought advice from me, but had an excuse for every suggestion I offered. Eventually, I gave her the names of websites and food trackers that I use every day and just left it at that. If the friend is starting to bring up personal stuff that's not relevant, that may be a sign to back off a little bit and let her work out her emotional issues about the situation (a cool-off period, if you will). This way, you're not inadvertently veering down an uncomfortable path when all you wanted to do in the first place was support your friend.
I'm not sure what more advice one can give if the friend is not even willing to eat leftovers! My husband and I both make good salaries and we eat leftovers all the time so this is truly mind boggling. My take is: right now she is just not in a good place to make more "negative" changes to her life, but that by soliciting the advice, she feels as though she IS making changes (without making any). I like the previous advice to direct her to frugal, non-judgmental sites so that when she is ready to implement changes she has a safe space to learn. I wonder if there are things you can show her how to do - for people who never had to bargain shop, maybe it seems too hard and intimidating? Ditto for meal planning. If she is receptive, perhaps you can set aside some time to do it with her so it feels more fun/less negative.
I think what Kristen said is a really good response. Maybe if the friend really just needs to talk, not hear advice, she'll realize it when asked. It's hard to be asked for advice, offer it, and have it rejected time after time. Perhaps the lady in question thinks that the letter writer is just talking and not walking the frugal life, that the letter writer doesn't actually do the frugal things she's saying she does, because she has "plenty." I'm not saying it was okay for the friend to say that about the letter writer's finances, though, but maybe that's why she said that?
Not the same situation, but I knew a lady who, when she found out my husband and I had bought a new car (our last one had blown the engine), commented, "Well, it must be nice to have a new car! My car is over 10 years old!" She lived in a nice home with a pool which was furnished in antiques, owned a very nice set of diamond bracelet, necklace and earrings, wore a fur coat, and that old car she referred to was a Lincoln Continental (which she later replaced with a luxury import SUV) which she just used around town because her husband had a brand new luxury pickup. It was not all backed by debt, either; her husband was notorious for refusing to finance anything, and he made a very good living. We had just purchased a standard Ford and were living in a mobile home at that time, so the comment both stung and struck me as ridiculous. I got over it, and I'm friendly with her still -- that's just the way she is -- but I can understand how the letter writer is stung by the comment she got, after trying to be helpful. As I said, I think Kristen offered a very good response. And yes, direct her to some frugal sites.
You might respond to her request for advice by asking her, "what areas does she feel she needs assistance? If she's not willing to eat leftovers, perhaps she isn't very worried about her grocery/food budget. But perhaps she is worried about another area and suggestions can be made there. We all know that the grocery/food area is one of the easiest to make changes, but if she doesn't see thar as an area she needs to change, she won't. Asking for her input also forces her to admit where she needs to cut back--prolly already knows it and prolly knows what she needs to do. She sounds very down and is prolly looking more at what's wrong with her life instead of what's good. A hard place to be. :-(. I hope she moves into a better place soon
I'm going to humbly suggest that the LW take a step back and examine HOW the advice is being delivered. I've had friends and family turn up their noses at my ideas, too. But then I realized I was presenting them with an "it's so easy!!" tone.
But keep in mind, when someone is used to eating out multiple times a week, going through the Starbucks line regularly, buying new whenever the impulse strikes, and eating conveniences foods....to have someone suggest that "it's so easy" to all of a sudden switch to scratch cooking, growing your own food, taking the time to shop for deals and compare prices, and finding creative ways to reuse old things is not exactly fair. Of course it's "easy" for me - I've spent 25 years making it so much of a habit that I barely notice I"m being frugal. I just am.
And perhaps when she asked for advice, she was freaking out about how to make the mortgage payment, and the car payment, and how on earth will she afford school clothes in a month so when you suggested "don't waste your leftovers" it felt condescending to her.
Start that conversation over. Ask her what's the most difficult thing for her right now? Saving money on food? Giving up entertainment? Affording clothes? Medical care? Then give her some baby steps like a good website or recipes or a store with better prices. Instead of a "you should just do ABC" delivery, use a "this is what works for me" or a "you might find X helpful" delivery.
She needs support and coaching to ease into this new lifestyle.
Thanks for this observation ... I was thinking back to my own situation, +15 years ago, when I asked one of the thriftiest coworkers I know for some frugal advice. She was a woman who was unmarried and childless, and in her mid 60's at the time. Her first observation was that I should require that my son (barely 14 at the time) go out and get a job, and turn over all his earnings to me, because that's what she had to do when she was a young teen (never mind the laws had changed regarding child labor in the interim). Sometimes advise can be tainted by the giver personal grievances and that is pretty obvious to any listener (BTW, NOT suggesting that is the case in this instance.)Bottom line, giving financial advice, can be a field full of land mines, and best left to either websites like this, or professionals, IMO.
"My dear friend, I'd like you to meet my friends Kristen, Katy and Pete*. They have literally changed my life for the better. I know they will do their best to help you too, if you let them." And then stop talking about it. If your friend continues to ask questions, gently refer her to her new friends.
* The Frugal Girl, The Non-Consumer Advocate and Mr. Money Mustache, respectively. Warning, MMM has a penchant for salty language.
Thanks for cluing me in to those two other folks! 🙂
Great advice! My husband leans toward MMM, while I prefer what Kirsten offers up here. You are right to give her resources so she can find information that suits her best.
I would just add the Prudent Homemaker to your most excellent list.
Yes yes yes...I read all Four!! Funny how we all travel in the same web circles. But if you really get down to the core, it's about contentment. Once you don't care what those Jones' think, it kinda falls into place, now getting to the place of contentment...that can be a doozie. We are bombarded as a society to never be out of debt, have the latest and greatest and make sure our kids always have the finest. Propaganda
FG-Your suggested reply was perfect.
Advice that's never taken is not worth giving, and I long ago stopped giving advice to folks who regularly ask for and then ignore the advice (or worse, act counter to the advice, but then blame you for the "bad advice"). This goes for both private and public life.
I'm a fairly-well-known hobbyist in a small part of the auto enthusiast realm (moderate-sized fish in a small pond) and administer a number of automotive forums (fora?). The many of us who are regarded as "experts" whose advice is sought do not take kindly to having our input disregarded, acted against, or actively disdained. The folks who exhibit these behaviors quickly learn that the well of advice and assistance dries up quite quickly! On one forum, we have a long-running thread titled "List of Folks Not Worth Your Time to Advise" -- it's good for a lot of laughs, especially when one of the named folks comes in and tries to defend themselves, only making it worse! 😀
It's too bad the friend is in a bad situation, but her snark won't help the situation or the relationship. I've never understood the strong aversion some folks have to leftovers, as I consider them tasty and a great way to save money (this caused a lot of consternation with an ex of mine who was a spendthrift and would not only throw out her leftovers, but mine as well!).
I'm a big fan of using leftovers too. Except when it comes to fish. I have a terrible time with leftover fish!
I can understand that. I'm not a big fan of fish, so I rarely have that as leftovers. I do like shellfish and usually under-buy so I don't have any leftovers.
Argh!!!!!!! I have the same type of friend! Thanks for your insight on this question.
I would send her links to your favorite frugal, budget minded blogs. It would be a great way to get out of the middle of her crisis while still helping. As for the comment...I'd let it go once.
It can be overwhelming when a relationship has ended, especially a bad one. Plus there are kids involved. Instead of "advice", maybe what she really needs and not verbalizing well is the need for the support of a friend. She has experienced a loss and is grieving. She is struggling to relate to you. Come along side of your friend, include her and her children into your family. Show her what your frugal choices look like instead of giving her "advice". Read up on how to support a friend going through a divorce and single parenting. Love her.
I agree with Jill and a few of the other commenters. It sounds like she is going through a really hard time right now. She likely feels overwhelmed and sad. The thought of having to make more changes in her life that she feels are deprivations may make her feel more sad and she may not really understand how to go about implementing those changes. If she doesn't know how to cook from scratch, telling her to learn to cook may feel daunting. When you are already exhausted and dealing with change, having to learn new things and making more changes is overwhelming. She probably just feels like you are heaping more on her plate that she feels is already overful and the thought of having to do those things in order to make ends meet and make a good life for her children is depressing to her. So try to be kind and give her a little time, as she gets back on her feet she may be more receptive. Perhaps more coaching and step by step help. For instance you could offer to go to the grocery store with her and teach her to compare prices and find bargains. Teach her how to cook a few basic meals if she doesn't know how to cook. The next time you are going to the thrift store you could call her up and offer to take her with you. Things like that. Good luck to you and your friend, and I'm glad she was strong enough to leave a bad situation.
I agree that the friend just wants someone to listen to her issues. Why would she ask for advice and then make a snarky comment? I'd play Switzerland and be neutral- let her know there are lots of great websites and books (like this one!) and that's where you've gotten some great tips.
She can catch up on her reading and relaxing and take away any ideas that she feels is something she can do.
Kristen, you put perfectly into words what I was thinking.
As I read, it seemed clear that this friend is actually in need of a "listening ear" as you put it. She also seems to be slightly resentful of your comfortable financial position, though probably unintentionally. She may be looking to "vent" her frustrations and commiserate about her tough situation. Unfortunately, that outlook isn't going to be good for her, or for the friendship. I'd suggest to be gentle with her, but clear about your advice. It is possible to empathize with her situation without encouraging her to wallow in self-pity.
Perhaps she needs a good distraction. Maybe you could plan a frugal "girls night" or play date to lift her spirits and possibly show her that frugality isn't so bad. Good luck!
My single and divorced friends assume a lot because I am married. I'd say your friend is not sounding very open to your ideas, and so I'd just sort of reflect back to her. Like "Sounds like this is a tough time for you right now,Sally." and let her vent.That said, I don't have a lot of patience ( or time!) for that kind of thing,so after a vent or two I'd just make a bit of space between us as she segue ways into a new life, and be available when she calls for real help, if she does.
I can offer advice all day, even if it is asked for, but I have absolutely no control over what someone does with my gift. I agree she is probably looking for a listening ear. I would turn this one over to a higher power.
She sounds pretty angry to me. And given her situation, I think that's understandable. What I heard from the comment about your husband making good money, was more: "it's not fair, you have a loving and supportive husband and I don't" than it was about the money.
I can sort of understand where she's coming from because when I graduated from college I chose an "alternative path," which meant that I was living beneath the poverty level. I did it partially to "follow my heart" but also because I was in a very bad place emotionally - dealing with some pretty heavy family and personal "issues." And even though it was a choice I made of my own free will, I couldn't help but feel resentful of my friends who had good paying jobs, and new cars, and good relationships with their families.
For me the key was finding a way to move out of a place of feeling oppressed and to get to a place of empowerment. I gradually came to see myself as a warrior of sorts who was "outsmarting the system" and it made me feel completely different about it.
So the first thing I would say is don't take it personally if she lashes out at you. She's not mad at you, she's just mad. Secondly, I think you need to find a way to be supportive without putting yourself directly in the line of fire.
When I was struggling, I found it tremendously helpful to read about people who had become empowered by living on less money. Books like "Your Money or Your Life" by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin, and "The Simple Living Guide" by Janet Luhrs really turned my thinking around. Those are both pretty dated now, but I still think they're helpful. Maybe you could give her a copy of one of them, or something similar - perhaps something that's been helpful to you.
Good luck - I'm hoping for the best for both you and your friend!
Well said all! I know someone who doesn't like Aldi because of the cart rental and BYO bags. Everyone has choices...giving options is what is great about this site!
Kristen, you have such a kind and gentle way of dealing with people. To ordinarily cynical persons like me, you are the kind of person who gives Christians a good name. Thanks for providing such good examples of ways to treat people, even annoying people like the ones who ask for advice, don't follow it, ask for more advice, don't follow it and keep complaining.
I went through something similar with a co-worker. After a few times of my ideas being rejected I would give her a list of books and websites to check out. She never did do anything to improve her situation.
A lot of times people asking for input are really asking for support--often for decisions they've already made. So maybe acknowledgment that her life must be a lot harder now may be all she's really looking for. Then, if she seems to want more, I would probably start with a comment about what works for me doesn't work for everyone then ask her what worries her the most.
I walked away from everything I owned . Most people seem to forget this . My life may seem glamourous to most people but yet we live on a very frugal budget. I took a year to regroup and made drastic cuts to our life. People see the good I reaped but they forget the struggle I lived to reach my destination. I no longer give advice . I tell people how I approached my struggle. Even then, I find that most people are not willing to make the sacrifices to improve their life. This is a list of my priorities.
1) A roof over my childrens head.
2( electricity
3) water
4( food
6 ) shoes and clothing for my children and basic school supplies
7) gasoline and car insurance
8) childrens medical insurance
Everything else is a luxury, Now that my finances are stable, we pay for:
9)my medical insurance
10) homeowners insurance
11) basic internet
12) luxury items are Hulu, Netflix, and 10.00 a month Republic phones
We stick to a budget, We coupon and save every penny we can. We cook from scratch and shop at Goodwill. I am looking for a deal on each item we need.
People hate when I tell them to give up : Alcohol, tobacco, fast food and eating out. Car payments and any other rental payments need to go. Really ? You are paying Aaron Rents for a Play Station !!!!! If you didn't have a car loan , you might not need full coverage insurance. Are you paying 200.00 dollars for a satellite dish.. If you have I Phones maybe you need a dumb phone. I downsized my life and it was hard at first but the stress free life it brings, is worth it. I lucked out, I bid on a house at auction and won. I saved my money and bought a 3 yr old car for cash. We live off of 1000.00 a month. I can catch fish and feed people but sadly no one wants to learn to fish.
Great comment.
Whenever I am asked for advice, I do not mind giving it, but I try to remember that the person asking is under no obligation to follow it. I probably would not bring up the topic again. If she did, then I would refer to FG as many have suggested.
I truly like the writer's idea of offering advice or a "listening ear" --to me it sounds like supportive and empathetic listening is what the friend needs most. She also sounds scared to death! Perhaps recommending this column and hoping that, in time, she will get to the place where the advice you share can be heard and possibly used. Know that what works for some, may not fit everyone, but being is friend is something we can all do and that we all need.
I think the unspoken question is "How do I make everything work now that Mr. X is gone?"
If she is hungry enough she will eat leftovers... but the grief and loss from the separation may need qualified/professional support. Even though she left a bad man for a good reason she will still be grieving for the loss of the relationship, for the loss of the relationship she thought she was getting, that couldn't be salvaged, for the years she wasted, for the perfect father her children were supposed to have....
All she may be able to process at the moment is the financial stuff and that's why the answers don't work for her. She may not be able to ask, or even think, the real questions yet.
Please encourage her to join a support group for women in her circumstances, offer to look after the kids while she goes, they may be the best ones to help her.
Bah, eighter your friend is hoping for an easy way out and gets frustrated/passive-aggressive when she realize this is hard work, or she truly wants to get better at this (after all, she still asks for help even after rejecting it) but when faced to the harsh reality of it her anxiety gets the best of her and she lashes out on you to feel better about herself/feel in control.
Eighter way, it's not about you, and you should not make it your personal mission to "save" her. You gave her some tricks, she turned them down. I would decline offering more help, personally, and gear her towards this kind of blogs (Frugal girl, The non-consumer advocate, The grocery shrink, etc). She's an adult, she'll figure it out!!
My word is be careful. I have lent a friend who was in dire need some cash. I never expected it back but now she has a lot of cash and she is still complaining. Seriously she has lurched from surplus to extreme debt....and now she is on an upcycle and I can see the circle beginning again.
Semi-relevant anecdote: once I asked a friend for some help learning golf. Turned out I still hated it. In hindsight, I suppose I should have maybe apologized in addition to offering thanks. It wasn't the best use of time -- his or mine.
I agree with kate-this may very well be about grief and a sense of loss (and lonliness). A heart-to-heart might work, as others have said, or it may not. I think the most important thing is to be there for her right now, and don't judge her too harshly. When she's complaining about having to be frugal, and turning up her nose at leftovers, she may very well be trying to hide the fact that she's devastated about WHY she has to do these things.
Also, it may be helpful for you to plan a fun day of free or extremely cheap activities for you/her/her girls/your kids if you have them (I'm thinking something along the lines of Katy's "Day of Adventures" from the nonconsumeradvocate). It would take some work/planning on your part, but it could show her that frugality can be extremely fun, and it would also help drive home the fact that she and her girls are not alone. Are there free "movie in the park" events in your area? Is there a park with a splash pad/fountain area? What about free concerts? A groupon to a favorite restaurant/coffee shop/ice cream place?
If you do point her to this website, make sure she reads the comments too! I often find that many of the websites I really enjoy (thanks Kristen!) have the best circle of consistent commenters that take the idea presented and add to it. Sometimes it points me toward a different way of thinking.
I will have to add that I'm not a huge leftovers fan, because as a single person that can be a lot of leftovers, but I do try to eat them or adjust my recipe for the next time. I'm not huge on leftover meat because I think the texture gets strange, unless it's pot roast and then I can eat the whole thing myself. 🙂
My friend went through this situation and the stress she was under was extraordinary. She had so many things on her mind that her brain was scrambled and she couldn't focus on what she needed to do for any one thing. She needed a lot of patient listening and support from me. She was pretty pessimistic at the time, but she gradually pulled herself together as she adjusted to a new normal.
One thing that seemed to help with her, (and others) was asking questions that would lead her to feel like she was coming up with her own ideas and plans. For instance, "What are your biggest financial issues right now?" "What could be done in that area to cut expenses?"
Good luck to you and your friend. I'm sure she'll always remember that you were there for her.
There is a wealth of good information on this page. You (all) are so much more perceptive and understanding of others than I am and I enjoy learning from you. You see the possible pain and motivation behind your friends' comments and behaviors. This is something I struggle with, looking beyond the words and actions. So, thank you for your comments, all.
Often I give unsolicited advice. Not a good habit I know, I'm working on that. But I think that advice is only that. It is my opinion, suggestion on a matter. The recipient of said advice can respond as he chooses. Hopefully he will seek advice from others as well and find some good options for his situation, as in all the suggestions you have offered.