How do you know if you're frugal or just ridiculous?
A reader question:
How do you know if you're frugal or just ridiculous? There seems to be a thin line. For example, is it frugal or ridiculous to postpone shopping for new undergarments for a year because new undergarments are not necessary for survival?
In the years that I have been reading content about frugality, I have noticed that this is a common theme/question/issue.
How frugal is TOO frugal?
What's sensible, and what's just cheap?
Where's the line between frugality and deprivation?
I'll write down a couple of principles I use to guide me, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts!
A few notes:
- I'm writing this from the perspective of the most frugal household member since that's always been my role
- I have in mind people who are choosing to be frugal, not people who will literally go hungry if they don't save every penny possible
Everyone gets to decide this for themselves
Since we all have different backgrounds, priorities, and sets of expectations, the answer to these questions is going to vary from person to person.
One person's frugal might be another person's deprivation, for example.
As long as a person's frugal choices aren't harming another person or harming themselves, I think they should be left in peace, even if others might happen to view their choices as too extreme.
A lot of us don't live by ourselves, though, so...
You should compromise with other household members
The odds of everyone in your household having the exact same standards for frugality are very low.
And since some frugalities do not just affect you, you need to consider other people's comfort levels as well. Frugality is important, but so are relationships!
This means that if a fellow household member is miserable if you keep the heat at 65 degrees, you should compromise.
Or if you don't mind using raggedy bath towels, but a family member hates it, you should probably get some new bath towels for that person to use, even if you continue to use the raggedy ones.
And hopefully, the less-frugal members of your family will also compromise and humor you. Flexibility on both sides is key!
Most cheapness is selfish
I think the line between frugal and cheap often comes down to a selfishness issue.
When your money-saving efforts affect just you, and they don't cause harm to anyone else, that's frugal.
When your money-saving efforts hurt or deprive someone else, that's when you've crossed the line into cheap.
For example, if you don't tip your waiter, that's cheap (who's affected? the waiter, not you.)
But if you choose to cook at home instead of eating out, that's frugal (who's affected? you.)
If you take a cold shower to save on hot water, that's frugal (who's affected? you! no one else.)
If you make your children take cold showers, and they don't enjoy that, you're being cheap (who's affected? the kids, not you.)
Remember that money is a tool
Sometimes those of us who are frugal have to be reminded of this: money is not just a thing to sock away for the future; it is also a tool to use in the present.
Sure, we could choose to live on the most bare-bones budget possible. We could:
- choose to wear undergarments until they're literally falling apart
- go without A/C
- eat beans three meals a day
- eat margarine instead of butter (!)
- wear socks with holes in them
- never, ever eat out or pick up a coffee
But our years on this planet are limited, and I think there's value in using money as a tool to bring joy into our days. Unless you are teetering on the brink of financial disaster, it's not going to kill your budget if you buy a new pack of underwear every year.
It's also not going to bankrupt you to get coffee with a friend each month.
Don't suck all the joy of your life in the name of saving money!
When possible, find ways to save without being deprived
I've written before about how I am not into a lifestyle of suffering.
But I DO like saving money. So, I am always figuring out ways to live a nice life on a budget.
I like quality furniture, so I get it for free and I refinish it.
I like good food, so I do a lot of cooking.
I like to drink coffee every day, so I make it myself.
On a related note, this frugal-but-not-deprived thing is very handy if you live with people who are less frugal than you; you can save money and avoid having them feel like they are suffering.
And to bring this back around to the initial question: instead of going without underwear shopping, why not choose something that's less like deprivation? What if you shopped a clearance sale or looked for a discount code or bought a bulk pack from a warehouse club?
There's almost always some choice besides going without.
I, the least frugal among us, have been known to wear raggedy underwear and clothing. Because it's just around the house, who am I impressing, and so on. Same with old crummy towels. But eventually I realized that I wasn't valuing myself as much as I would have any one else I was responsible for, such as my children. I don't want my kids wearing raggedy underwear, so why was I? Note, too, that I am someone who takes pride in my appearance, likes to dress well, and so on.
Basically my point is that women and especially moms can not value ourselves enough to take good care of ourselves, putting everyone else's needs first.
@Rose, I agree, but finding underwear that fits properly is tricky, so I tend to hold on to my old threadbare stuff.
@Rose, excellent point. Mothers often put themselves last.
@Rose, I believe women are worse than men at valuing their time in monetary terms. We are less likely to demand appropriate wages. We don't take credit for homemaking skills-- cooking, crafts, decorating-- that make important contributions.
@Rose, So true. Kid wants to take a class? No problem. Pay for a yoga class for me because I'm feeling stressed and unhealthy? Nope. Will mull over it for days until the urge passes. Kids are outgrowing their pants? On order immediately. My waist is expanding and my pants don't fit? Eh, it's fine. I should lose some weight anyway. Kids are interested in going to a show? Yep, let's do it. Momma has an interest? Nah, I don't really like it all that much. The worst part? I do it to myself. My family would gladly take me somewhere or accommodate me needing to be away. I limit myself. And I worry that my two daughters are going to learn from me and do the same in the future. Sigh. One day at a time, do a little better each day. To that end, I signed up for a cooking class that I'm going to take this weekend! I'm so excited.
@Kris,
No kidding properly fitting underwear is so hard to find.
@Rose, I admit that I am a mom who tends to put the needs of the family above my own. I struggle with valuing myself so I'm lucky that DH often tells me that he values me. He points out when I make a sacrifice that I would never ask of him or the kids, and it makes me realize that I need to reassess the situation.
@Beverly, I think having a partner who does this is important. My husband has recently been insisting on buying me new dresses (not from a thrift store!). I have said, "No, I don't need it," but it makes HIM happy to be able to buy something pretty for me that he knows I really like.
@Rebekah in SoCal, and therefore, I dislike buying new underwear because I hate spending money on something that doesn't work well for me. I wouldn't mind buying it if I thought it would fit well, but underwear isn't exactly something you can return .....
@Kris, bra, I don’t dare to buy new ones. Loved a model that is gone out five years ago.
I have try , just to give them away after less then a month.
@Bella, I finally broke down and tried Wacoal brand bras. They are pricey but if you get them on sale they are manageable. I'm busty and I especially like the Simone sports bra--the wiring is on the outside of the cups, which sounds weird, but it's much more comfortable. I wear it all the time unless I have a lower cut top on. It's very supportive and there isn't a stupid seam across the cups (hate the seam--talk about looking like a granny!).
@Rebekah in SoCal, @Kris, yes! And it seems like the problem is getting worse!
@CrunchyCake,
Yes, exactly! My son has outgrown his shoes - so we're shoe shopping today. Me? I'm wearing 10 year old shoes (fortunately, my shoe size has stabilized, lol!). Yay you for taking that cooking class!
Well said, Kristen! I often have to remind myself that money is a tool, and it's okay to spend it on what it was saved for or to be grateful that it's there when something unexpected requires funds.
The only thing I'd add to your list is combining frugality with generosity. I don't need or want to be rich, just comfortable enough to give freely without having to do the "Will this short us?" mental math first. My husband and I eat out rarely, in part because we like to tip well. We often split a meal since restaurant portions are so large, and so we tip the cost of the meal or more (i.e. if the total is $17, we'll round up and tip $20). It makes the meal that much more enjoyable, too, knowing that we'll likely make someone's night a little better. We both tried being waitpersons in a past life and hated it, not the least because of all the shabby ($1 or less) tippers!
Very well said! Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I especially appreciate that you pointed out that we need to be considerate of others in our household.
It might also be helpful to do a post sometime on polite ways to deflect comments related to your frugal lifestyle. For instance, my brother tends to make digs at our choice to live in a modest, older ranch-style home instead of moving to a more upscale area. I try to either use humor as a deflection or to gently say that we chose the house that we could afford to purchase while living on one income. I can't deny that his comments get under my skin, though.
@Kris, "This is where we can afford to live. Mind your own bidness, Bro."
Come to think of it, I do tease my sister about her house. I honestly don't understand why they are still living with a hideous kitchen with vinyl flooring worn through to the backing after 12 years, when some peel and stick would cost less than $100 and not look so unsightly. Her husband's cheapness drives me crazy. But it isn't my bidness.
@Kris, response to your brother "Why does it bother you?/How does it affect you?"
When things said like that I think to myself:
1. I'm rich in experiences.
2. I wonder how much debt they are hiding.
3. That is one shallow person.
@Kris,
You can frame it as caring about the environment, having a smaller footprint on the Earth. It is your prerogative. Why does it bother your brother could also be asked.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Having a nicer house in a fancier area carries so many costs with it.
@BettafrmdaVille, I do wish people would stop assuming that anyone who lives better than they do is hiding debt. It comes off as sour grapes. Some people with an upper middle class lifestyle are drowning in debt; some aren't. The same is true of people with a lower middle class lifestyle.
@Kris, if it helps any, when people make comments like that I try to remember they're usually just expressing their own anxiety about their lifestyle. He's probably absorbed a lot of what he learned as a kid about what success is. He would probably not feel comfortable living frugally.
A lot of people judge others based on what they themselves would not feel comfortable doing. My mother-in-law, for example, believes no respectable person rents their home, they should own it. She was mortified when she learned we were getting out of home ownership (after losing lots of money in the housing bubble burst) and said "But people don't DO that!" She won't even consider moving out of her house, which is literally falling down around her ears, because she owns it outright and doesn't want to buy another home somewhere else. Telling her she can rent somewhere is pointless, because people don't do that.
Meanwhile, her house is unsafe for us to visit (mold, rats, wasps and the neighborhood is not safe either), and that affects us! As Kristen would say, there is a line between cheap and frugal!
@Rose, I did not mean to infer that at all. Just that we rarely have any idea how much money and/or debt any of our family or friends.
I do often think that when people make negative comments about other people that it is frequently to make themselves feel better about themselves.
Also FWIW, I am a high income earner and I do not begrudge others who may make even more. It was definitely not sour grapes.
@Kris, thanks for your comments. I have (very nicely) said that we all have different priorities and we spend our money differently, and that's ok. That message doesn't seem to sink in so I guess I either need to be more direct with him or suck it up.
Rose .... I feel sorry for your sister. I bet she is frequently navigating a lot of awkwardness, feeling like she needs to be supportive her husband while being frustrated with him at the same time. If you are in the habit of exchanging gifts with her, maybe a gift card to Lowes or Home Depot would be helpful? You know the dynamics and whether that would be well received.
@Kris, Nope, the cheapo she married put paid to that little bit of enjoyment in my life. No gifts for adults. (ᵤₕ ᵢ ₕₐₜₑ ₕᵢₘ)
When they bought the place in 2010, I suggested a remnant of sheet vinyl until they could get the kitchen fixed up. No! What a waste! Welp, we're rounding on to 2023 and the 1970s vinyl with black backing (mostly black backing) is still there. Again, whatever, I don't live there, I don't even spend much time there because it stresses me out.
@Rose, hmm, this sounds like what I tell my kids is a "smile and nod" situation (or "put on your patience"). That's too bad.
BTW, we installed sheet vinyl in our kitchen almost 20 years ago and it still looks great. It definitely isn't the in-style thing these days but it's a whole lot better than the icky carpet (in the kitchen!) that we had when we moved in. Blech. Now I want to recarpet the bedroom/hallway .... if I can get over the mental hump of moving all.the.stuff.
@Kris,
I am not sure if this is the case here, but I have sometimes interpreted people's comments as criticism because I felt insecure. Examples: my MIL suggesting we do maintenance to our (then falling apart) kitchen or me getting a cleaner to help with the housework. I responded defensively but looking back I do not think she meant this as criticim at all. In her own household my MIL struggled badly with both time and money and she wishes us everything that will make us feel comfortable. Note: I used to be even more defensive to my late mother who was an excellent housekeeper, erring to the side of perfectionism. It took me many years to realize it was not realistic of me to expect I could meet her standards in housekeeping while I was working a fulltime company job at the same time.
@Rose, yes! I’m one of the “poorest” family out of the 6 kids in my growing up family. We make less than at least 4 of my siblings, and it shows. They are not hiding debt, but I also know that such wealth has not protected them from problems and pain. Being not as wealthy hasn’t protected us from problems and pain. Money isn’t the answer to everything.
@J NL, that's a pretty typical reaction and yes, I've been guilty of that ..... but not in this case. I love my brother but he is undoubtedly on a quest to climb the social ladder of success. My sister sees it, too. He also performs it in reverse. A few years ago we both bought the same make and model of a car within 2 months of each other, from the same dealer. We have purchased from this dealership in the past so they offered us an upgraded model for around $800 more, and we took advantage of that. On multiple occasions he has brought up how I got the "better " car, inferring that I spent a lot of money on it. I corrected his perception but it didn't matter. Which is why most of the time I try to take all his financial comments with a grain of salt. I just wish he'd stop making them but that's a pipe dream.
@J NL, Being defensive in my responses to criticism was my own problem for such a long time. Finally, I realized that I feel twice as bad after a criticism when I try to defend my choice. Since then, my mantra is “never defend.” In fact, no response is the most secure, and best, put-down to criticism. Letting the meanness hang out there for all to see.
@Rose,
You are so right! We live in a fancy-ish house. We chose it because it fit our family's specific needs, because it allowed DH to walk to work and we got it on a short sale. It's on the very same road that leads to his office, so he walked to work. This means everyone drives by our house on their way to work. (I call them our free security patrol.) Many think we're drowning in debt, but we paid cash for this house and everything else, inside and out.
DH and I have a running gag. When anything related to finance comes up, I say I have a Rich Husband and he says he has a Rich Wife. Meanwhile, his truck is a 2002 and the 2014 Toyota is our "new" car. We *are* rich because we appreciate each other's frugality.
@Kaitlin,
Exactly! I have a friend at work whose household makes at least triple (maybe more) than my hubby and I make combined. They live in a very nice house in an expensive area, they take expensive vacations, etc. However, she and her hubby have an odd relationship (from the outside looking in) - he is not supportive of her efforts, does not help around the house of with their two kids, she is frequently angry at him, etc. There is a great deal of pain and problems there. Not saying my life is problem- or pain free, but money doesn't fix everything.
@Rose,
Ugh. My sister buys new cars, eats out every meal- in fast food places mostly- and has a boat on a house by a lake.
And my family uses her cracked (like a giant mold-filled crack through the whole wall) grimy 1970s bathroom as the gold standard for "we won't use any bathroom that's worse than hers."
so far, only one disgusting gas station has been worse.
But to each his own? lol
@kristen- I miss reading your blog but I can only come in for a minute at a time because that annoying tennessee ad keeps screaming no matter how many times I turn it off. I can't have that when I'm always answering phones for work.
On a side note, as it talks about the area I lived in and says "you don't have to like music, nature or bourbon..." Ummm... literally the ONLY thing it has going for it. lol
Ugh here it goes again so i'm out of here.
Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that. I obviously do not experience that ad since I'm not in Tennesee.
Can you send me a screenshot so I can ask Mediavine to block that one?
I LOVE today’s topic. I am frugal for several reasons. I love the challenge, it makes me feel responsible, it allows me peace of mind, etc. But I will splurge or not worry about cost in certain situations. I have to do a reality check and make sure my choices aren’t affecting others. For example, if I’m severely delayed at the airport by myself, I can choose to stay at the airport or get a hotel. But, if I’m carting around other people who are tired, weary, cold/hot, hungry, thirsty, it would be the kind and generous thing to do to allow them to reset at a hotel, get a meal, a sleep, a shower, etc.
I agree that there really is an obvious distinction between being cheap and being frugal. If you are causing suffering, placing someone at a disadvantage, taking advantage of someone or taking risks with the health and safety of others, then you are probably being cheap.
I think there is a huge difference between cheap and frugal. I view cheap as taking advantage of others to get what you want. Examples: an in-law that sourced his toilet paper from work, a friend that photocopied grocery store rain checks so she could always buy chicken at a sale price. That's just wrong (and both people had adequate funds to pay for these items).
I think we all have our frugal quirks and as long as they don't impact others I think it's fine. Another great post Kristen.
@K D, I don't see their behaviors as cheap, I see them as stealing.
There are different things to be frugal with. Frugal with money, frugal with time, frugal with sharing abilities or skills. Those interact.
The other day I needed some margarine for a recipe and it was MORE expensive than butter at my store. I have never seen that before. I did buy it because I have tried this recipe with butter before and the margarine really does produce a better result.
So the frugality is that I am aware of the prices, that I thought about the purchase and that I decided to buy the item because it was worth it to me. Also, I froze the leftover margarine so I will have it for future times making this recipe. I have enough to make it 3 more times.
@Ann, Were you making Preacher Cookies by chance? I miss them made with margarine! I switched to butter a few years back, but some things aren't quite the same... It's like Cool Whip vs. Whipped Cream, I suppose. You have to put Cool Whip on strawberry pie, you just have to.
@Sarah C., well, I had to Google what preacher cookies are but it turns out that YES, that was what I was making, but we always call them "No Bakes", I have never heard the term preacher cookies! This is the only thing I use margarine for, but my whole family prefers how they come out with margarine compared to butter.
What about gift giving? We should all be able to decide for ourselves what is cheap or ridiculous, but we also know we're being judged by what we give others especially when giving homemade items. I find this difficult even when gifting high quality items I'm proud of, but I get vibes the recipient views my gift as cheap.
@Bobi, would these recipients be open to discussing what they want and/or alternative gifts (charities, offers of help with chores, etc.)? That’s the tactful way to go about it vs. just not giving them presents since they don’t appreciate your efforts. I thrift new-with-tags items all the time, but some family members have made it clear that second-hand gifts are “icky” no matter how new they genuinely are—also, charitable gifts don’t count. Those relatives receive items from small businesses connected to their interests while I save the thrift scores and charitable donations for like-minded friends and family.
@Bobi, I ruminate over this more often than I care to admit. I talk myself out of giving small gifts because of the way it might look. My inclination is to make food or treats and give them to my friends, usually because i think it would make packing their kids' lunches easier or because it's one less meal they have to figure out. But then I talk myself out of it because "what if it looks weird?" or "what if they don't like it?" I want to give my three year old niece an electric pencil sharpener because I have a strong feeling that her little toddler self would love it. But then what if my sister-in-law thinks it's a weird gift. So sometimes I just go for it. And sometimes they think I'm weird. And sometimes I'm glad I did it because I get asked for a recipe. And really, even if someone gave me a homemade gift that wasn't up my alley, I would be thankful and touched that they thought of ME. So I should have faith in others that they would feel the same.
@N, I get a special thrill when the gift I receive is a second hand find. It pleases me to think of saving something from the trash. I have several friends who like books and long ago I asked them if they wanted a new book or perhaps two books if I could get them second hand---every one said, "Two books please!"
@CrunchyCake, I know everyone is different but when I receive a handmade or handcrafted gift, I treasure it even if it is not up my alley. Because I know that someone cared enough to make something special just for me.
I encourage you to have faith in others that they feel your thoughtfulness when you give small gifts.
@Beverly, Noted. Thanks for the encouragement 🙂
You guys need a more damn the torpedoes attitude. My gift was great! If she thinks it's weird, her loss, toots.
@CrunchyCake, I once gave a toddler a key ring full of old keys. He loved it. Weird/ surprising gifts are the best.
@Lindsey,
Books may be my favorite thing to share. I often buy books secondhand and rarely keep them after they are read. I pass it on to someone else to enjoy. I give them to friends, offer them on Buy Nothing, or donate them to the library book store.
@Bobi,
I have expressly added to my list that I value thrifted and home made gifts as much as I do bought gifts. I hope that will make it easy for family members on both sides of the gift-giving spectrum.
@Bobi, This is the one I wonder about as well. If I wouldn't admit that a gift is thrifted or regifted, am I doing the wrong thing? If I'm giving someone a book, is it OK to buy it used (good condition, of course)? What if I can't look it over before I give it?
@Rose,
I wish there was a like button for comments.
I've had this conversation with others before, and I drew the same conclusion: who is affected? There has to be some compromise with others who live with you, which is why my house was quite warm in the winter and a little too warm for me in the summer when my husband was still living at home. He has circulation problems, is largely immobile and chills easily, so I sucked it up and paid more for utilities.
Frugal is living mindfully and carefully, making thoughtful choices of where one will spend less. Cheap is skimping on others even to the point of their discomfort. I think Kristen has nailed it.
Another category I have an issue with is the person who spends lavishly upon him or herself but denies things to other family members because "that's too expensive." I'm looking at you, Mr. hunting club memberships, yearly trips out west to hunt with new guns, camo and blinds, and week long fishing trips with buddies, but says those piano lessons that his musically inclined kid is dying to take are too expensive. Not that I've ever known anyone who would do that, ahem.
@JD, I do. My parents sent me to France when I was 11 to spend a few weeks with a family whose daughter we had hosted as an exchange student. Yes, they sent me alone. No, they didn't really know the family. Anyway, while I was over there I fell off a bike and got ten stitches in my forehead, and was just miserably homesick after two days in the hospital. I got to call my parents and I begged my mom to let me come home early.
Her response: "No, it would cost too much to change your plane ticket. Now, we should hang up, this call is costing your hosts a lot of money." 😮 I still have a lot of bitterness over that. If my kid was overseas, alone, and was injured and wanted to come home, I wouldn't worry about the cost, I'd take a loan out if I to. I mean.
@Karen A., Awwwwww, poor baby.
@Karen A., that one is difficult for me. I believe teaching your kids to deal with stress, discomfort and loneliness is part of education. Not because of money but because I believe in grit.
@Bella, which might be fine - if that was the reason that Karen A's mother listed. FWIW, I'd've been inclined to leave my child there (unless their personality/skills make it a really bad idea) but I would not have cut short the phone call.
@Bella, And as William said, that might be fine, if that was explained, and if the child's personality in question was up for dealing with such. I think it's a really individual decision that has to be made depending on the child and the situation. In the end, it all worked out, and I had some interesting experiences, but I never forgot that the reason my mom didn't want me to come home was that it would cost her money. She also had the habit of pointing out that if we skipped a class in college it would be her hard-earned money "down the drain" (she calculated how much each class cost). To that end, I never skipped a class, not even when I had mononucleosis during finals, and I ended up very ill that summer and on strict bed rest for six weeks.
My mom commented as I was trying to nap, "I guess this means you're not going to be working and earning any money this summer!"
So you see it was quite a pattern with her, and it wasn't about grit or learning to deal with discomfort or loneliness. Always the money.
@Karen A., As a mom of two teens, I can tell you I would have been on a plane to get you as soon as I heard you were hurt. I can't imagine how hurtful it would be to head that you weren't "worth" the cost of a ticket change
@Sarah K, Thank you.
I had to be frugal for 20 years. Now I choose to be frugal. But I also choose to be generous and being generous brings me great joy.
I am retiring in the next two years ( at age 53) so I will have to go back to being very frugal. If I miss the joy of being generous with money I plan to start being generous with my TIME.
I LOVE THIS BLOG.
Being frugal is about not being wasteful. There is really to much waste in America.
@Kathy Burge,
Well said. Regardless of our financial circumstances, it makes good sense to NOT be wasteful, whether food, time, etc.
I often wish someone would come up with a better word/words for those who seek to make conscious choices about how they spend their financial and other resources. Fiscally prudent, Fiscally conscious, something else as frugal has long had, and wrongly, a negative connotation.
I also think it's important to note that being frugal can also be something that we do selectively, and not across the board on everything. Many parents, for example, are extremely frugal with choices for purchases/expenses for themselves as a way to ensure that their children have more options/choices for their lives/lifestyle.
Children don't need designer clothes or the latest iPhone (or ANY iPhone for that matter, when there are perfectly good cheaper cell phones out there), for example. But many parents often recycle clothing amongst their kids and that often causes major issues for those given the hand me downs. Sometimes parents literally can't afford new clothes for each child when there are several but sometimes parents forget the world in which children live today, especially teenagers. Where wearing really old clothing (well worn and showing) can be a source of problems for the kids. You do the best you can with what you have and hopefully do not go into debt to feed and clothe your children. Some clothes remain classics, even for picky kids/teenagers. Others? Well, best given to charity if still in good condition.
Adults imposing their choices on children can be problematic. As Karen pointed out, who feels the impact of your frugal choices? Some people really get carried away (can you give your child peanut butter and jam sandwiches EVERY day, all the time? I hope not. Again not talking about folks for whom frugality is a dire necessity and not a real, freely taken choice. Kids don't need an annual Disneyland vacation but why not a state park, etc?
@Irena, My husband I and question adults buying the latest iPhone alllll the time. What do these phones do that are so special? Children may not know any better but adults... Not that people aren't allowed to choose expensive phones, it's just why do they feel the need to? I'm not talking about wealthy people either.
@Kathy Burge, Very good point!
@Sarah C., Thorstein Veblen nailed it. He identified the urge to spend and show off as a social statement, a sort of social competition. We who are trying to be frugal have to think about whether we care what the neighbors or others think. The "need" to buy X is a social thing, not related to actual need!
@Sarah C., A lot of people are used to iPhones and scared to try another model. It's not just about showing off.
@Kathy Burge,
That is so true and it is also disheartening to consequently think, consider, choose, act with waste in mind. If you consider that only 3% of plastics can be recycled, and that remaining plastics are shipped to other countries so our waste departments can say our plastics do not end up in our countries' incinerators. I do end up with some groceries in plastic in spite of this knowledge.
I can only keep up my courage by telling myself that it is better to do well inconsistently than to do ill consistently, and am reminded of what happened to the dad in "Mosquito Coast".
@Kristina, Veblen was a genius, wasn't he? Especially given when he reached his conclusions.
(Just about) every human craves status within his society/group. In some groups, visible wealth and conspicuous consumption is a big way to acquire that status. For an extreme example, ready Ann de Courcy's The Husband Hunters, about the American girls seeking English & European titled husbands during the Gilded Age.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/31522805-the-husband-hunterse
That, thankfully but probably not accidentally, is not true in my own social group. At least not as a rule: book ownership is definitely a thing.
@Rose, There are other reasons to have an iPhone as well. Privacy and security, for example. OTOH you don't need the newest iPhone for that.
I am an iPhone girl, but I replace mine very infrequently, and when I do replace them, I'm always a few models behind the times, and I usually buy refurbished.
Which is basically what I was saying at the end of the post: that there are almost always ways to get what you want for less.
@WilliamB,
LOL, I volunteer at the library's book sales and get books for super cheap. In fact, the volunteers who help with takedown on the last day can choose from anything that's left over, as we pack it up for donation. I picked up a copy of that book for *free* and I am looking forward to reading it.
I like your framing of this as the negative connotation of "cheap" has everything to do with how our choices affect other people.
I also like your point that we can choose to be frugal to actually improve our lifestyle. Sometimes the cheaper option--and here, of course, I am thinking of food, because when am I not?--IS the more high-quality option. I can grow food better than the food I buy, and cook food better than a restaurant can.
And then I can use the money I save there to buy my son his football cleats and basketball shoes, because those I will not be making. 🙂
I am the more frugal person in my household and I put effort into making things not seem like deprivation for my husband. One example is I always pack his lunch. He would prefer to occasionally eat fast food (as he did when single) and he really hates making lunch every evening. If I make his lunch (and put occasional treats in like homemade potato salad or a hot lunch), he is content and we save money for other things.
@Rebekah in SoCal, I like your solution!
Great post and great perspective, FG. I love the viewpoint of live and let live. My husband and I are in different places on a lot of things so we just do our own thing. He can't be bothered by getting the last of the toothpaste tube or driving around looking for free parking. He'll toss that tube and pay for parking without a second thought. So I take that tube and finish it myself but I don't make him deal with it. If I'm by myself, I will find the cheaper parking because I don't mind the extra walk or the hunt but when we're together, I know that we'll be using the valet. He uses paper towels, I don't. He gives me no grief for my long, hot showers.
For myself, I've had those moments where I've wondered if I'm being crazy or frugal and when it's at that inflection point, I ask myself if it's worth it. Sometimes if the action aligns with my values, it's a quick no-brainer. But I catch myself being unfairly hard on myself sometimes by applying unspoken, unnecessary pressure on myself and that's when I have to rethink my choices. For example, I didn't want to pay for a robot vacuum. But I did want clean floors. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I felt like I was being a failure because I couldn't keep up with the cleaning. Then I reminded myself that the task at hand was to find a way to keep my floors clean, not necessarily to sweep and mop. So roborock was a solution and my life is better because of it.
@CrunchyCake, excellent example and point! You were doing to yourself what you would never do to a friend--judging, with no grace. I like that you got to the heart of the matter--what was your goal and what were you willing to do to achieve it? Perfect!
As usual with your Wednesday discussion topics, Kristen, I'm enjoying this one thoroughly. (If I could eat popcorn at this point, I'd make myself a bowl of it and enjoy the back-and-forth like a tennis match.)
I think that many of my own feelings have been expressed by several others. I personally regard frugality as a kind of "Limbo Rock" challenge ("How low can you go?"). But I made various accommodations for DH while he was living at home, and I try not to do things that make other people uncomfortable--unless, of course, these things fall into the "that's my business and mine alone" category.
As for gift giving, my siblings and I have been exchanging charitable donations for over 20 years now (my oldest sister's excellent suggestion), and the friends with whom I exchange gifts are good with A-1 secondhand finds, homemade gifts (mainly sets of herbs and the annual Martha Stewart calendar for the Bestest Neighbors), charitable donations, and/or "service gifts." I admit that I'm lucky not to have relatives or friends who feel these things aren't acceptable.
When I was a child, my father was frugal. We didn't have a lot, but we had enough while he saved money to put us all through college. When I was a teenager and Mom left Dad and took us with her, he became cheap. We lived one winter without a refrigerator because he was punishing Mom. And us.
Do you mean how I know if I'm being frugal or just cheap? Oh, everyone knows, no matter how you justify it- there's no escaping from your conscience!
You can be cheap with yourself as well, it is just not the others who are at the receiving end! What am I going to do with the money that I had and that I suffered to save?
Speaking of being cheap, I recently received a bizarre-looking cheap vase from a friend who lives in a 2 million home and is fabulously wealthy. People KNOW when you're being cheap and stingy just the same you know what is considered an appropriate gift (google helps also), especially when you have one standard for yourself and another for others.
I see plenty of "frugal" lifestyle blogs where they dump-dive, eat whatever's on sale, and hoard free/cheap stuff without showing ANY care for the nonrenewable resources, cheap labor, and the Climate Crisis.
What's the point of being the richest person in the graveyard? How are you going to prevent your left-behind money from being wasted? You can't. So, use it for yourself to improve your lifestyle quality and help others! There's no point saving it without any purpose!
Thinking about others who will be affected by my choices is a good and wise part of all kinds of planning, esp. financial planning -- thanks for the reminder
Love this reflection! I do feel that there's a bit of nuance on the issue of frugal vs cheap being who is affected, because even if it is just me and not others, it is also about HOW I am affected. That is to say, it's important to ask, am I affecting me in a way that increases my suffering? If so and this is Not Needed, then for me it also falls into the category of cheap, not frugal, This can feel victorious but also superiority and almost like saintdom, verging into martyrdom?
For example, to take the example of cold showers, a mom saying well, I take my showers cold because no one else does, so I have to make up for the whole family! or, well I wear by underwear until it is threadbare because it doesn't bother me (but doesn't think about what that does to their view of themselves, maybe it can slowly feel like you are not worth more than threadbare underwear? or can make you feel not so comfy with your partner?).
Anyway, I've noticed that whenever I gave myself less than my family in a way that I wasn't excited about, it felt a little bit like resentment and guilt and these are #NoGoodBadThings to feel towards the people you love. So I try to be careful and also think about me and if I feel like I HAVE to, then I see if we can rethink things a bit to cut where we CAN instead. I am like a toddler and when I have to do it, I have a little tantrum lol.
Anyway, all I'm saying is: let's not use frugality to treat our own self poorly. 🙂
A very thought-provoking topic today, I like it.
Growing up my parents were not frugal at all, but they were cheap. By that I mean when they purchased something, they usually got the cheapest of what was available, without giving any consideration to durability or longevity of the item. Once I was shopping with Mom and she found dress blouses that she could wear to work for $5 each, which was a great price. But instead of buying only what she needed, she felt compelled to buy TWENTY of them! Even as a kid, I remember thinking how wasteful that was!
So being frugal to me means that I have gotten the most value for my money on products or services that I actually need or will use.
I was raised frugally, but we also had times when we saved up for a non-frugal event--or purchase. The plus side of frugality s that OFTEN frugality turns out to be better than throwing money at a situation. Take, for example, if you don't have money for a birthday gift and instead? you and your kids knit a hat and mittens. That is a win-win family experience AND the gift is handmade-- MUCH better than a random item someone buys in five minutes at Macy's on the way to the party.
Lots of wonderful insights. Just a note on my own not-so-ratty underwear: when my husband of 3 years went back to graduate school, we didn't realize how poor we would be. Everything we owned got used hard, and worn out, including shoes and underwear. We worked hard and made do until he finished his Ph.D., and it was so wonderful to buy new underwear and shoes. Ever since I have tried to keep our household decent, not knowing if we were going to face another marathon of extreme effort. Maybe not entirely rational? But we have both made career choices for non-monetary considerations and we had the freedom to be teachers and a journalist, because we were comfortable living simply. We could not have kept up with the Joneses. I had a few moments of jealousy, when my sister bought a new house and a new car and had a new baby all at the same time, but never regretted the joy of learning and helping my husband reach his heart's goal. We are still very happy, celebrating 44 years together last May, and easily entertained. New underwear makes my day! Along with a good dinner!
I think that some things appear frugal, but are more so a sign of creative thinking. My mother is famously frugal. She believes that you get what you pay for, but she also likes to make handmade gifts and does "Friday Soup" which is nothing more than a mix-up of leftover meat and veg from the week with homemade stock. The same woman will order clothes from LL Bean in addition to sewing dresses out of feed sacks. She's all over the map! Its all in how you look at it. Creative + frugal = fun. And I for one, love her "tacky homemades" as she calls them. Its usually something she sewed, quilted, crocheted, canned, etc.... I have learned a lot from how she uses her money as a tool to get what she wants and needs.
We have area’s where we care and other where we don’t.
No one here care about cars. We drive a 20 year old Honda.
We don’t enjoy eating out. Every meal is home cooked. Never pickup a coffee.
We don’t play golf, polo nor tennis. My husband run and daughter and I do yoga together.
We like traveling and transcontinental flights are business. We do try to do house and car swapping .
We do a massage every week at home( lady comes by) . Pool , garden and housekeeping are also where we spend , in part because it is here the social thing to do, But we work both a lot .
My husband and I don’t spend much on clothes, the teenager way more.
We find balance, probably go wrong quite often . I know we spend way less then other people in the same income braked.
And when the towels become too ratty, I bring them to a dog shelter and buy new ones.
I am the only one in the family that look at finances, my husband really doesn’t care. I do the spending and investing. We paying cash for our son master.
One specific, we live on a small island and buy most stuff when traveling.
Household goods, we go to the store and hope to find one. No big boxes stores here.
I try to be frugal. I'm better in some areas and need to work on others. My father, however, was cheap. There were legit reasons for it due to his childhood and such but in his adulthood he made money and didn't spend what he should have to the detriment of his family. We never lacked for fundamental things but could have been much more comfortable. Never went on vacation. House was freezing in the winter and hot in the summer. Good old Dad never bought a new car let alone a quality used one. Our long driveway would be filled with clunkers that he was always planning to fix. Our garage was filled for years with a car that didn't run. Made my mother so sad to have a run down looking house. My father was a brilliant, self-made man who worked as an attorney. He invested in property, less so his children. The kicker was when I was still in college and needed to have an ultrasound. He took me off of his insurance when I turned 21 and I switched to what I could find thru my university. Lousy coverage which wouldn't pay for an ultrasound let alone the surgery that I ended up needing to have. I will never forget asking for the $150 for said ultrasound and he put me off until the next month. The kicker was that he had cash hidden in the house and could have handed it to me. I ended up paying the hospital bill in installments once I moved out. Obviously I'm still bitter years later.
@Molly F. C., I am so sorry you went through that. The man obviously had his priorities out of whack.
For me frugal means I am careful with how I spend my time and money. I will pay a bit more for a something that is well made and will last a long time so my money was not wasted. It doesn't necessarily mean I will pay the lowest price possible. It also means I try to take as good care of things as I can so they last as long as possible. In terms of my time, I will pay someone else to do work if it will cost less per hour for them to do it vs. how much I get paid by the hour at my job. I could do our taxes, but it's cheaper to pay someone and let them deal with learning all the new rules each year, and being that my husband is self-employed, he can write off a portion of the fees.
Cheap is when you will pay as little as you can, even if the quality is sub-par, no matter what. My husband used to buy these really cheap socks that would wear out in a few months and shed bits of material all over the bedroom carpet every night when he took them off. I finally convinced him to spend a bit more for better ones that have lasted much, much longer and don't shed, saving us the trouble of repurchasing them and vacuuming more often.
@AnnieH,totally agree on the socks. A friend pointed out that the socks she chooses from her drawer are always the good quality ones like Smart Wool or Darn Tough brands - both are an expensive upfront investment - but they are are especially warm, comfy and stand up to washing and high use. So rather than have a sock drawer full of inexpensive socks, I have fewer socks but ones I enjoy.
@Jean, Agreed. After much back and forth debating with myself, I invested in Bombas knee highs for the fall and winter months, especially to wear with boots. It's been at least 4 or 5 years and they still are in great shape! They haven't stretched out and stay up all day. Totally worth every penny for me.
@AnnieH, thanks for your comment "I am careful with how I spend my time and money. I will pay a bit more for a something that is well made and will last a long time so my money was not wasted." It reminds me of my father.
When I was a teenager, my dad taught me an interesting term, "false economy". His example was about shoes - is it better to buy $10 shoes that last a few months or $50 shoes that last five years? It is false economy to buy the $10 ones, more expensive in the long run.
I spent several hundred dollars more for a Maytag commercial washing machine because HE machines last only 3 to 5 years. The Maytag uses more water. It was expensive. But it gets clothes CLEAN and should not need to be replaced for another two decades.
@Elaine N, Love Maytag machines! My parents invested in one when they moved into their house just before I was born, over 50 years ago. They were raising three kids on a small teacher's salary so it was a big hit to the budget, but that machine lasted! I was in my thirties by the time they had to finally let it go. My mother cried and when I asked her why she said, "I washed your diapers in that machine!"
And the shoes?...it's not just the false economy at issue there, cheap shoes are so bad for your feet, joints, and back. Fortunately, I learned that lesson early in my 15 years working in retail.
I agree with you Kristen. We each choose for ourselves as long as it doesn't deprive someone else. The only exception would be if you are seriously struggling to pay an electric bill or mortgage payment, ect....Then, yes, we may need to go to the extreme even if it's considered cheap.
And I think we need to show grace to family members who may be more extravagant or cheaper than we are....we need to consider the reasons behind it.
I try very hard not to judge others by their possessions. I think that we all different wants, needs and values. Like you Kristen, I hope that my decisions do not negatively impact myself or others. However, there have been times in my life when sacrifice was absolutely the only way we could reach our family’s goals. This made me appreciate life’s little pleasures even more.
I have learned over the years that frugality and sacrifice look a little different to everyone. For some of us frugality means driving a 12-year old car or making soup from a chicken carcass (me). To others, it means waiting to buy a new Louis Vuitton bag for 20% off at the Sax 5th Ave Friends and Family Sale (much-loved friend). Different strokes for different folks.
@Bee, It's funny that you used old cars and chicken carcasses as your examples. No matter how much money I have I will always drive my cars a long time and I'm famous for saving leftovers for stock.
@WilliamB,
Here Hermes handbags, but carcasses are going in the pot and my car so old, the hospital where I work don’t want me to park there any more. Books are a major affair . The big after marriage thing for us was putting our books together
Many years ago I quit working to go back to college. The first time I went to the store I thought about getting the generic toilet paper instead of the Charmin I preferred. I decided that getting the generic would make me feel negatively. I make many financial decisions based on my feelings. When our son was married in a South American country where I knew the woman would be wearing rented gowns I splurged on my dress so I would feel pretty. My feelings have served me well. Mainly I feel joy at being frugal which allows me to be more generous with others.
@Nancy, I'm admittedly a toilet paper snob and I only buy the good stuff. That being said, I'm not sure that cheap TP saves money. You have to use more of it to do the job.
Funny story--when my daughter was in middle school and had a group of friends over for a birthday party, they spent a lot of time talking about our super soft toilet paper. What a thing to be known for!
@Nancy,
During the Covid crisis, I bought the only toilet paper that I could find which was a 36-roll pack of rough, generic 1-ply. We found replacement TP after using just two rolls. Finally this past April, I made the commitment to use it up. After all, what else was I going to do with it? It had been in the supply closet for nearly two years. To throw it away was wasteful. To give it away would be unkind. I didn’t want my children to inherit it. My husband refused to use it and we didn’t put it in our guest bathroom. I finally used it all by August. It was a long 4.5 months. I hope that soft TP will always be one of life’s affordable luxuries.
This is an interesting question, but it is also somewhat loaded. I guess if someone asked me that exact question, I would need to know more information to be able to properly advise them. If you are truly struggling to survive, then no amount of (particularly unseen) frugality is ridiculous. If you are just trying to work on financial goals (like pay off something or save for a large purchase) then I guess you just have to ask yourself if the sacrifice feels worth it to you. I don't think anyone else can answer that for you, though I am sure some may try. 😉
I always love your "philosophy of frugality" posts Kristen. And it is wise to include the perspective from which you are writing, because that helps channel thoughts.
The areas where people will splurge/be willing to -temporarily- deprived on, depends on what gives them most pleasure (good foods, concerts) or comfort (winter clothes, turning AC on) perhaps. What you prioritize depends on personal need and preference.
Anyway I am personally not tempted by "buy nothing months" and so on because it seems wiser to me to keep an eye out on good bargains and make a "need or greed" distinction as a general rule and not based on (social media or peer pressure) challenges.
@J NL, I agree about buy nothing months. I don't think they work well for people who spend mindfully but can be very useful for people who don't.
@WilliamB,
Not picking on you today, I promise! I consider myself a mindful spender, even post-FIRE. I like no-spend months because it helps keep me mindful for the rest of the year. I choose February, because it's the shortest month. What I do with the money I save varies, but in one of the early years, I had a friend who was very ill. I was able to give her enough money to pay her rent and groceries for two months, which turned out to be more than she actually needed. I'm glad I was able to give her a modicum of peace during her last days. Had I not just done a No-Spend Month, it would have been much more difficult to do. It was much easier to give joyfully, so I still do them every few years just to keep my skills sharp.
Money isn’t just for the future but also a tool for now. I like that and it’s something I’ve had to learn as we care for our disabled son.
We had been saving aggressively to help him be set for adulthood (while also not knowing what we were doing with saving money) until a special needs financial planner walked us through our finances and asked what we were doing for him now that we couldn’t do in the future. It was a lightbulb moment: by saving so much for his future we were depriving him of developmentally stimulating experiences that could help him grow and thrive now so he (hopefully) won’t need as much later. We are still saving quite a bit (now with guidance from people who specialize in setting up finances for the disabled population) but have loosened the purse strings to make sure we are taking care of him and us now. It looks like getting him everything he shows interest in (motivation to learn more), eating take out (or grocery freezer meals) once a week so I can spend more time with him in the evenings and at therapies during the day. And buying a 130 year old home that needs extensive repairs so he can have full access to everything he needs without navigating stairs.
@Kaitlin, What a thought-provoking question from your special needs financial planner!
Having a special needs child changes one's views of the future and finances; I am glad for you that you are working for a good balance of now and then for your son and yourselves.