A poverty line at $140,000? (and other miscellany)
A recent post went viral for arguing that the new poverty line should be at $140,000 for a family of four (two parents, two kids).
Let's talk about it!
While I do understand that prices have gone sky-high on a lot of things, I think it is a bit ridiculous to suggest that $140,000 is anywhere near the poverty line for most American families.
(And saying so seems insulting to those in true poverty, such as people without homes and/or regular access to food.)
The reality is that an awful lot of American families make less than $140,000 and still manage to stay housed and fed. Honestly, in many areas of the country, $140,000 would be a comfortable income, not a poverty-level income.
Obviously, every situation is different; a family in San Francisco needs more for housing than a family in South Dakota.
And a family that has a child with disabilities will need more money than a family where everyone is healthy.
I'm just saying that on average, $140,000 doesn't seem like a poverty-level income, even in these inflationary times.
And for those of us who are rock stars at stretching a dollar, a $140,000 income would feel like a whole lot to work with!
(I think Amy Dacyzyn would have a thing or two to say about this article.)
A helpless attitude leads to hopelessness
I want to be careful how I say this, because I don't want to be offensive to people who are in overwhelming life situations. If that's you, I'm not talking to you; I'm talking to the average person who is not in terribly extenuating circumstances.
Something I find frustrating about the types of articles like the one I shared above is that they lead to a helpless outlook, and that breeds hopelessness.
If we believe every doom and gloom piece we read, we might start to think, "Oh my gosh, I don't even make $100,000, let alone $140,000! It's impossible to own a home/buy a car/go to college/build a savings account/save for retirement.", and we might not even want to try.
It is true that the costs of some things have inflated wildly, and that wages have not gone up in tandem. These things are quite out of our control.
At the same time, we do have some choices about how we spend money; not everything about our finances is out of our control.
We can choose to take a less consumerist path through life. We can live differently from the average American.
For example, we can:
- buy used
- repair things
- eat at home
- reduce our food waste
- drive older cars
- choose free/cheap entertainment
- go to a community college/apply for scholarships/use work tuition reimbursement (oh hey, that's me!)
- live in a smaller home
- find cheap/free ways to do things (for example, my free flights with Southwest points, my free gift cards from credit card reward points, my student discount symphony tickets, and so on.)
A helpless, hopeless attitude makes it hard to want to try any of these things! And sitting in a puddle of hopelessness doesn't do a thing to affect inflation anyway.
So for me, it always helps to go back to my "What CAN I do?" question. That's what got me through the years of financial difficulty while I was getting divorced; a lot of things were out of my control during those years, and it helped to focus on what was in my control.
I guess what I'm trying to gently say is: a both/and approach could be helpful.
Yes, things have gotten stupidly expensive. That's out of our control.
AND...there are still things most of us can do to positively impact our financial lives.
A little self-callout
Sometimes I think things like, "I'm SOOOOO busy. I definitely don't have time for a daily 15-minute mobility routine."
And then I consider that I routinely spend a lot more than 15 minutes a day doing unnecessary things on my phone!
Is it true that I am pretty busy? Yes.
But it is also true that I still have some choices about how I spend my time.
That became starkly clear to me when I stopped bed-rotting* on my work mornings; I suddenly had time to make my bed, unload my dishwasher, do my breakfast dishes, and still get to work earlier than usual.
It's not that I didn't have time before; it's that I was spending the time in a way that wasn't serving me very well.
*I know, I know, some of you hate the term. Sorry!
I got a pill container
I have gotten through my whole life without needing to take daily pills. Which means I am terrible at it! I kept forgetting to take my iron pill and my vitamin D pill.
(Still working on getting both of those bloodwork levels up to normal.)
So, I broke down and got one of those weekly pill containers, and I will say, it is helping. I only missed two days last week!
I did my math wrong
Remember my post about the penny going away? I made an error!
I corrected it in the post once a reader alerted me but: I did my math backwards when I was calculating how much the worst-case scenario of penny-rounding might affect each person.
It's not $46/person/year, it's between 2 cents and 3 cents/person/year!
Soooo, I don't think any of us need to be sweating the financial impact of a penny-free United States.
(Numbers are from this article.)
Alrighty...talk to me! Any of these topics are fair game.
(I'm gonna guess the first two will be the most discussed, though!)
RE: the $140,000 'poverty' line:
First things first, the cost of living is very, very different depending upon where in the US you are living. So I don't even think we should have a federal/national 'poverty line'. It should be regional, or even by state.
Secondly, I think we as a society have a very skewed vision of what are true needs (shelter, clothing, running water, heat/electricity, food, transportation), vs. what are 'useful' wants (a smart phone vs. a flip phone, internet service at home (yes, in many places you can access at the library still!), air conditioning. Do those useful wants make life easier and more pleasant? Of course, but can you live without them? Yes, at least for a period of time.
Then we have the luxury wants, which don't even need to be 'luxury' items, but are things we can definitely live without: travel, takeout food/restaurants, streaming services, new clothing when we have sufficient items in our closet, etc. I would even put things like sports or other activities for kids in this category. Yes, it would be great to have your kid in professional classes or sports camps. Is their survival incumbent upon it? Likely not. I'm not saying those things aren't wonderful, just that they have a price tag---financial, and time, and family relationships.
I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but I see families all the time that cry 'poverty' not because they can't put food on the table but because they can't get their 10 year old the latest iPhone, or they can't go to Disney every year. We've been conditioned to think these are 'needs'.
@Denise, I agree with everything you said. I have friends who--only based on what they've indicated regarding their situations--make less than our household, but they seem to spend more on things which I would never consider purchasing. This is not a judgement on them; everybody has different priorities. One of my friends will admit that they have a spending "problem" but I think a lot of people are looking for the dopamine hit of purchasing. That little high one gets before acquiring something. Marketers have definitely created "needs" out of "wants".
@Denise, the way things have gone, it’s not so easy to dismiss a smart phone and/or home internet as wants instead of needs. My home bound, elderly parent has a hard time making medical appointments, checking in, getting results, etc. because medical practices want everything to be done through their portal. Same for a grocery order—needs phone or internet. Medicare wants clients to use their website. The library stopped sending the bookmobile and wants patrons to use e-resources. The bank wants customers to use their website. Etc, etc.
@Denise, very well put!
@Denise, you make many good points, and I'm going to have to disagree about the smart phone. We've really integrated that into daily life: job applications are online, coupons and discounts are online, communications and community-building are online. Smart phones are our computers much more than they're our telephones.
I also judge that the poorer you are, the more important it is to have one. You need more access at odd hours - not everyone can get to the library during business hours and some political bodies are sharply restricting library hours. You need quicker access in order to respond immediately. If you don't have a fixed address then your smart phone is how you get all communications.
@WilliamB,
I agree. A smart phone has become a necessity. They are no longer just for basic communication.
@Denise, to your point that the poverty line might need to be regional, I think some of your "useful wants" might fit that bill as well. For example, extreme heat kills more Americans than any other weather event in the country (https://www.nbcnews.com/weather/heat/deadliest-extreme-weather-event-not-think-rcna219702). Air-conditioning is therefore not a nice-to-have, but a lifesaving necessity.
Beneath the needs-vs-wants, there is also the nuance of instant gratification that I don't see talked about very much. Wanting all big expenditures at the same time is seen as a hardship in ways that have changed over time, in my opinion. It's not necessarily extravagant to want to go on a nice vacation, or get a new car or send your kid to college. But you may not be able to swing all those things in the same year, and that doesn't mean you are poor. People who complain about the cost of living sometimes list several big ticket items in their budget, and seem unwilling to postpone some wants in a phase of expensive needs. Childcare is expensive and non-negotiable for many families, so maybe the kitchen remodel has to wait a few years? I feel like those decisions are often lamented when they should be normal prioritizing.
@WilliamB and @Bee, you make good points about the increasing ubiquity of smartphones, and I'm probably going to be forced into getting one in the next year or two because that's the way the world is going. But I regard not being a slave to a smartphone (I have a flip phone that I use as a phone only) as a form of freedom from mental tyranny. I'm not pulling it out of my pocket every few minutes to make sure I'm still alive, as I've recently and sorrowfully seen one dear old friend doing. 🙁
@A. Marie,
Yes, she definitely need to set limitations.
@Halle, Yes, this is a great point. Like others have pointed out, sometimes internet is a need--I and my kids need it for school, as some of our courses are online, DH needs it for his work--and A/C can save lives, not to mention it can keep a home lasting longer by avoiding big temperature shifts. It's about proper prioritizing and making a solid judgement call about what is truly a need for each individual or family.
@Denise, et al,
I definitely agree with the idea of a national poverty line as being wildly inaccurate. Even a regional or state line is going to have too much variation for the average to mean much of anything. Take my state of California -- it's huge! -- the difference between someone living in San Francisco versus someone living in a rural area makes an average cost of living calculation ridiculous for both situations. Can you tell I teach middle school math with this rant. 🙂
And as a San Franciscan family who (for this year at least) makes below $140K, we are doing just fine and *even we* should not be included in the poverty limit. Now, if my partner is unable to get a job before next year, we will need to make some pretty hard decisions, but we are lucky enough to have the savings to manage a temporary single-income household. Our frugal leanings are certainly helpful in this regard!
@WilliamB, Exactly. I have worked for two places where I needed a smartphone because they required me to download an app. In general, people need the internet and a good wifi connection as well, because managers will want to get hold of them and/or they might need to do work at home. And you need a fixed address to even find a job these days.
@Denise,
I totally agree with all you stated. I personally feel comfortable (not overly because I watch my budget) with what I have as a yearly income yet I am not anywhere near that $14000 projected income level....and I live is a very costly state. I was also taught at a very young age that if it can be repaired it will always be less costly so that is what I do until I can't with many things. Even my grand child laughs at me because I build computers for myself that can be upgraded for several years (7-10 years) whereas his generation buys the next great thing when it comes out or when they can afford it every 2-3years.
@WilliamB, Yes! Homeless people in my city usually have a smart phone. They need it and use it all the time. There are (were?) government programs that provide a free basic smart phone and plan. My brother called it his “Obama phone” when he had one.
@Lauren, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Where I live, air-conditioning is not a want, it is a need, and vulnerable people can die without it.
@DCO, yes I understand that for some people in some circumstances those things can be necessary, but (as per the two parents/two children in the example) children in particular don't need smart phones.
@Meg in SoTx,
yes, air conditioning is important. But do we 'need' central air through the entire house, or will a window or wall unit suffice? If you live in an area where the heat is over 90 for much of the year, perhaps it is more necessary than in northern climates that only see those temperatures for a short period of time.
It's just another regional difference like the cost of living.
@Denise,
I agree that $140,000 per year is not the same from place to place. Federal income taxes will likely eat up at least around $20,000 of that and state taxes will vary from state to state. Sales tax, health insurance, housing, utilities, etc are also quite variable from location to location and affect "disposable" income.
I am fortunate to live in a relatively reasonable area - may have higher state taxes, but a great education system, good roads and public services, great health care, continued ACA health insurance subsidies. . . I believe you get what you pay for.
And I have never tried to keep up with the Jones', I prefer to drag them down to my level. Not saying I never spend anything on treats - occasional meal out with friends, good yarn and fabric as I love to make things, donations to charities that are important to me, excellent health insurance. . .but I am grateful to have been raised by a father who truly taught me the difference between wants and needs (a concept that my siblings seem to have missed) and how to make do, patiently save money for the wants, and be creative. It makes me sad that we accept living in a society that tries to convince us that we need so much stuff - closets full of clothes and shoes, a gadget for every task, a multitude of household decorations and toys for all ages, to always be entertained rather than learning to entertain ourselves.
Ok, I will stop preaching to the choir.
@DCO, very true. I am mobile and can easily go to my library to access the internet to do such things. My parents? They just want to talk to someone on the telephone, but that's being phased out. They recently moved states and have been setting everything up from scratch and my mom jokingly said she's learning so much and keeping her brain young by navigating all the different systems.
@Denise, I have to digress re: smart vs flip phone. With some many things being online only (think job applications, schools), a smart phone is more of a necessity. Not the top of the line smart phone by any means but I do think it is now a need, not a want.
@Halle,
Agree. Learning to wait a bit for the bigger ticket purchases that are not immediately required (as in, a new kitchen vs a replacement boiler) is something I'm sure that we used to do even a generation and definitely 2 ago, right?
I'm guilty of the second- complaining about how I can't get much done around the house and realize I've been wasting time on word games or solitaire instead. When my wor schedule shifted last year on top of some very chaotic things , I lost my routine for cleaning and laundry. Now I need to put my mind to it and figure out a new pattern instead of gloomy looking up from my games and wonder why the house is messy.
And thank you for mentioning the penny number again. I know some of your readers were very concerned about that, and they might not have read the correction.
Always check your answer, friends; see if the units make sense! $/person right, person/$ wrong.
@mbmom11, yes, I can relate! Life shifts have changed some of my routines and now I need to reconsider. It feels hard but worth it!
I think in this world of influencers and easy shopping, our wants and needs have become very skewed. Also, our reliance on phones and credit cards. I wish I could just leave my phone in a drawer some days. Knowing that in my state, a teacher's starting salary is about 40K, that means two teachers would still be under the poverty line.
Its hard to raise a family with all of the noise that tells us, and our children, what they "need". I grew up with a family who emphasized needs only, and for fun we played games, rode bikes, took walks, went camping, etc. Going out to eat was very rare. I appreciate the "de influencers" who are popping up to let us know that living like that is still ok.
@MommaJo, Agreed on the influencers. I used to read "healthy living blogs" and at first they were about healthy recipes, healthy habits, but now they are mostly posting lists of their favorite products (often gifted from the companies for advertising purposes) and saying they are "essential" to their daily lives.
@Karen A., because as soon as they become popular blogs, the advertisers approach them. When they “monetize” (that word just sticks in my throat) their blogs, they compromise their information and get confused about who it is they are writing for. (But not our Kristen!)
@Central Calif. Artist Jana, spot on!
Thank you Kristen for not forgetting who you're writing for. Reading your blog is part of how I start my day on the proper foot.
@Central Calif. Artist Jana, So true. An ironic and perfect example of this: the woman with the famous book on tidying and decluttering came out with a line of dish ware and other kitchen stuff a few years ago.
@WilliamB, double ditto!,
@WilliamB,
I do not think of Kristen as an influencer but a journalist of sorts ( I have not used social media since I closed down my FB and other accounts after the Cambridge Analytica data scandal)
@WilliamB, me too! It's part of my morning ritual, a peaceful place to start the day. 🙂 Thank you Kristen!
My husband and I are both teachers in the south with 2 kids. We fall below the ridiculous "poverty" line mentioned in the article. However, I see what true poverty looks like every day in many of my students, and it sure doesn't look like $140,000. Even when I stayed home for 4 years when our kids were babies, and we were living on about $55,000 a year as a family of 4, I would have never said we were living in poverty. Sure, things were hard and the stress about bills and groceries and the mortgage was real, but the fact that we stayed afloat without going into any debt is testament to the fact that we can still live pretty comfortably on not a ton of money. Many people have a skewed concept of what living comfortably means though. I do think that the only positive of this kind of inflammatory article is that it creates discussion and thought about what is a real problem- and that is never a bad thing in my opinion!
@Hana,
I did not find this article inflammatory as much as thought provoking. The challenges of achieving upward mobility and staying in the middle class are many. The author's discussions of these challenges are insightful.
@Bee, I agree. One good thing that I think comes out of these articles (while I still think the title is ridiculous) is that it hopefully keeps us trying to improve things for those who are really in trouble.
I’m of two minds about the $140,000 “poverty line.” For many years I worked with families struggling with true poverty, and $140,000 is not that. On the other hand, I’ve watched my children, a teacher and a police officer, struggle to obtain the milestones of America adult life: a (reasonable) wedding, homeownership, even reliable cars. If the point of the article is that it is more expensive—and therefore more out of reach—for young families to obtain the traditional middle class American standards, I think that is true and worrisome. Yes, frugality helps, but young adults need a sense of hope that their striving will result in them being able to have at least some of the things they want for their lives.
I think that you bring up an important point. The $120k threshold is a reflection of middle class standards more than true poverty standards. The poverty line sits at approximately $32,000. However, this article does discuss the economic realities of those living with income between $32,000 and $140,000.
@JaeFi,
You brought up another wild and crazy thing: weddings. Some people think they have to outdo the royal family -- and have large, over-the-top weddings. Who can afford such things? I had a coworker who did this. She and her DH got married in a large church. Everything was extremely elaborate and extravagant. How did the wedding go? She said, "Fifteen minutes, and it was all over."
But do these couples put half as much planning into the marriage as they do the wedding? I bet they don't.
@Fru-gal Lisa,
Even my children’s very reasonable weddings were expensive, requiring long-term savings (and some reasonable, gladly given parental assistance.) While I know that minimal weddings are of course possible, my children’s weddings were joyful events and I’m glad they were able to have them.
What I find frustrating in regard to weddings and many other things (home and car repairs, appliances, restaurant meals, etc.) is the wide ratio between what I earn and what these things cost. My hourly rate is significantly below the hourly rate for repairs!
@JaeFi,
check into home warranty places that you pay monthly/yearly fee & repairs (sometimes replacement) are covered by policy. I've had good luck in past where my AC ended up needing replaced & I didn't pay anything extra.
I also have a monthly home appliance policy through my utility company that they send repair person to do repairs for selected appliances (furnace, AC, washer/dryer, stove, fridge, etc). They are actually faster than other repair companies.
@JaeFi,
check into home warranty places that you pay monthly/yearly fee & repairs (sometimes replacement) are covered by policy. I've had good luck in past where my AC ended up needing replaced & I didn't pay anything extra.
I also have a monthly home appliance policy through my utility company that they send repair person to do repairs for selected appliances (furnace, AC, washer/dryer, stove, fridge, etc). They are actually faster than other repair companies.
@Bee, the war on the middle class started with raygun (union busting). The middle class has been shrinking ever since. The "wealth" gap is really an income gap. At least in my tech career, there are few with experience between entry level and experienced.
@JaeFi, one thing I noticed in your reply is that you are addressing the cost of purchasing a home. I think most of us own a home that was purchased when home prices were more reasonable. In the 10 years between when my DH and I bought our home and when my sister and her DH bought their home, the price of homes had gone up astronomically and they were priced out of buying a detached single family home. My husband and I could not afford our current lifestyle if we were buying our first home now.
I think those articles are total click-bait and I disregard them entirely. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not.
My mom was recently visiting and left one of those pill organizers here. I always associate those with my own grandparents, because they were the only people I knew who had one. And now my mom, of course, is the grandparent, so I guess it's only fitting she has one. Maybe I'll save this one for my own future grandmother-hood. I don't take any daily pills yet, but I might by then. 🙂
Hmm, well, I'm not American so I can't really comment on the poverty line math. But I'd gently challenge, Kristin, that neither did you. You said that a lot of people are housed and fed at that income, but you can be housed and fed and still poor; you can be unable to save for retirement, unable to save for education, unable to pay for healthcare, unable to afford childcare, unable to afford transportation, or one paycheck away from homelessness--which by the way, 25% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.
Sure 140 000 sounds like a lot of money to me, too--converted into Canadian dollars it's much higher than my household income, and we feel wealthy. But is the writer's math off? Do we disagree with the premise of how he calculated it?
@Meira Bear, I agree. It's so much harder for our generation to hit traditional milestones. My parents got a free university education and housing was a lot more affordable. I am still paying back my loans (and they're a lot lower than in the US) and am a long way from owning a house. It seems you need a partner, inheritance or a an incredibly high salary to get started.
I also think cellphones and wifi are a must these days. Do I want them to be? No, and sometimes I leave my phone at home when I go out. However, employers will expect you to have a permanent number and email which you can access 24/7.
These things don't make it impossible to build savings but it's a lot harder than we might assume.
Some of the responses to this article (lots of them pop up on google because this was controversial) do break down the prices in more detail. 🙂
To me, it was sort of like if someone said, "Everyone needs to eat 5,000 calories a day, or they'll starve to death." I would read that and think, "That's weird. Lots of people do not eat 5,000 calories a day, and they are still alive. This must not be right." and I wouldn't even need to do calorie calculations to know that.
But of course, defining poverty is a little complicated and perhaps therein lies the rub.
@Sophie in Denmark,
Yes, one of my children was able to buy a home because of an inheritance, and the other because their partner works in a well-compensated field.
@Sophie in Denmark, exactly. Like you, I live in a place with more social welfare (Canada, Denmark) and it's still hard. At my age, my parents (on 1.5 incomes) could afford a house and a nanny, and frankly they were much less financially savvy that my husband and I! We can afford neither of those things. We have loans from my education, the cost of childcare (which was more than a full paycheck a month when we started,) never mind the general cost of living. We are not poor or even close, by any means, largely because we are highly educated and employed in stable fields. But 25% of Americans aren't one paycheck away from homelessness because they spend too much on fripperies.
@Sophie in Denmark,
I have to challenge this just a bit. I have a lot of compassion for younger people. It is very hard to meet life's milestone, but for most of the last 75 years, it has been difficult. When I brought my first house, you still had to prove that you saved your down payment of 20%. Around 1994, this was loosened up. My GF who was slightly older than I bought her first home in 1980 when mortgage rates were 17%.
Having said that, I think the whole education/student loan debacle has made it nearly impossible for your generation to start life on the right foot.
@Meira Bear, 100% agreed. I saw a quote once which said Americans see themselves as 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' rather than anyone who could be in poverty or at least low on funds. I think that explains a lot about the lack of social funding, but I don't want to get political.
@Sophie in Denmark,
Ouch! That's very political and not especially accurate. I have to stick up for America here. I am nothing if I'm not extremely patriotic. I don't think there's anything wrong with believing that with the right tools one can achieve one's dreams. America is indeed a country where one can become a self-made millionaire.
Would I like to see more support for the middle class? You betcha.
However, they often say in macroeconomics that a government has to make a choice between guns and butter. There are many who believe that United States military support of Western Europe following WWII (guns) has allowed the European social democracy (butter) to flourish at the expense of the American people.
@Bee, Inaccurate in that people don't seem themselves that way, or inaccurate as in an insult? I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I do believe, however, that it is immensely difficult to become a millionaire, moreso than people are led to believe. I think you have to have the foundation of education and the right connections to get started, and most success stories are simplified as we all wish to be in that position.
@Bee, I found the original quote, and it was a paraphrase from John Steinbeck: '"I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist. '
This article is interesting, although I should add that I'm not an economist so can't comment on the overall accuracy, and it's a little old. I think a lot rings true though:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-02/americans-think-upward-mobility-is-far-more-common-than-it-really-is
@Sophie in Denmark,
Completely inaccurate assumption on the ability to attain goals in a Capitalist society. I have seen it first hand people who come from nothing, without college degrees, have an idea, work very hard, fail and try again. No handouts and make it big, become leaders of community.
My grandfather fresh off the farm, worked his way through college, worked at a wood mill, started his own mill a few years later while living in a tent. When he built his tiny 2 room home, he knew he made it.
This article is just foolery and click bait a complete waste of time.
@Sophie in Denmark,
USA has Social programs that are used by (currently) 42+ million people in our country for people at/below poverty that are paid for by American taxpayers controlled by Govt agencies. Free Food programs, Free college education (up to 4 year degree/Bachelor's) at any school that student is accepted at & college accepts FASFA. We have affordable housing programs & programs that help people purchase/down payment for house. Free public school education. Free/reduced childcare programs. Free medical/dental/optical with reduced/free prescription. Free cell phones with low cost/free cell service.
@Blue Gate Farmgirl, I'm not saying it's impossible, just harder than people make out. I think it's simplistic to say all you need to do is work hard to attain something, especially in today's society. If you get injured or have a health crisis or a disability or lose your job, that makes it all the more harder. I also wouldn't call government support 'a handout', but that's by-the-by.
I also think this article is interesting and perhaps does a better job of explaining the issues I see. Again, I am not trying to say it's impossible to achieve success or negate anyone else's...just that it isn't black and white.
https://theweek.com/culture-life/american-dream-dead
@Bee, HOW did education become so expensive.It worries me and saddens me.When I went to nursing school,in Iowa, in 1982-84, the cots for my whole program was $3200. I did not have to take “prerequisities. “ for 2 years PRIOR to the nursingn program. We took our English, public speaking,chemistry, anatomy,etc along side our nursing curriculum. We went to school full time and got an ADN and tested for our RN at the end.Then we got a job!!!!
My husband's education in a four year college,Rutgers, was more, but not nearly as exorbitant as today’s fees.
I went back to school and became a Nurse Practitioner with assistance from my employer but now THAT is exorbitantly high priced,too.
How can young people have hope to get ahead when they come out of school with catastrophic debt?Somethings’ gotta give in the USA!!
@Sophie in Denmark, I completely understand your position and agree with you. I work in healthcare and have seen heartache here in the US. All the “free” programs seem like there’s a catch or no more funding.
@Madeline,
I compared my FNP costs to my next door neighbor's and my costs were 204% increase over Her degree 10 years prior. Gasp worthy!
My kids (all 23 including foster kids) went to community college then interred when possible to see if what they wanted to do was worth the training or college degree.
@Regina, and part of the 42% are "trad wives" - who didn't go to work after their children were raised in order to save more for retirement. My grandfather's pension was "offset" by his social security. And like most males at the time, chose a pension option that allowed his spouse to continue to collect after he died (he outlived her).
And I have to take your purchase/down payment for housing with a huge side eye - what are considered starter homes are being snapped up by private investors. Not enough free/reduced childcare to meet the need.
And if you've ever known a person on Medicaid, you'd know that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Only certain meds covered, only certain diabetic testing devices covered. The amount of money one gets from SNAP is appalling. But ensuring the ultra wealthy don't have to pay squat in taxes is the *most* important thing.
I feel like someone somewhere is going to say "Oh, that was a typo. It should be $14 thousand not $140 thousand...And even for us single/no kids at home medical types who make half that, there are still employer benefits that contribute to the big financial picture. I feel very far-removed from poverty, and saying I am does seem tone deaf to people who really are in fact, impoverished.
{And go ahead and say "bed rotting" with no apology - its your blog! Maybe the people who don't like that term feel a bit of shame for doing the same thing, ha ha!}
I keep meaning to read a book by Laura Vanderkamp, 168 Hours. Your second point reminded me of my recent vow to work on strength training--two days working in a nursing home just drove home to me how important muscle strength is for nurses and anybody working in health care. One resident, when I was preparing to help her ambulate to the bathroom, looked up at me and said, doubtfully, "Are you strong?" They know what's needed! Surely I can find 20 minutes, 3x a day to work on that! Especially now that classes are over for me until January.
I like to use a pill organizer when I travel for a week or so; it helps me pack my supplements without carrying around two or three bottles. Thanks for the reminder to go find one before my next trip!
The affordability crisis is real! I have written often about the impact of inflation on my own standard of living. Something that I began to notice in earnest in late 2021. I also have three adult children in their 30s who are feeling the crunch. They have done everything right, but they still wonder if they can achieve financial stability.
I did read an article earlier in the month in the Free Press which placed the poverty line at just a little over $100K. When I reviewed the numbers in that article, I did not find them at all surprising. In fact, aside from childcare, I think the numbers are low for my area of the country.
Without a doubt, there are things that we can do to improve our personal situations. Many of those things are discussed by the Friends of the Frugal Girl. Unfortunately, however, I don't believe wage growth has kept up with inflation. As someone with a fairly strong background in economics, I look at this mess sigh. I know what needs to be done, but I'll stop here. That's all I can say without getting into a discussion on policy which will lead to a discussion about politics.
Wishing you all a wonderful Wednesday!
@Bee, I'm with you on your feelings about the mess. My early training was in economics and I have Opinions. Like you, I share none of them here because applied economics is a political subject.
@WilliamB,
But it is a discussion that we really need - not here, of course - without it devolving into a political riot or name calling. I wish so that we could look at policies and discuss the pros and cons of each. I wish we could look at long-term and short-term policy without worry about elections and power.
@Bee,
what I find interesting is that people complain bout intrest rates today & I think Wow intrest rates have come down so far since my childhood. 17% was common until 2000 & then it started to come down.
What makes me sad is that at even $100,000/year you still need to make conscious decisions about your money if you want to not live in debt. When married we bought a foreclosure house (was lucky on condition of house & property) but we still paid a lot more than I wanted. I refinanced as soon as rates dropped from double digit to single digit. And I had 800 credit score so I can't imagine it what it would be otherwise.
As you know insurance plays a big factor into costs also, which has gone up year after year if you can get it.
@Bee, Wage growth has never kept up with inflation, imho.
I am 66 years old and have lived in or just outside of Boston (a VERY high cost of living area) since I was 30. I came after graduate school and in 1987 my first post-doctoral position was $18,000 a year. As time went on my income gradually went up and when I retired from academic research professor position 1.5 years ago, my salary was $146,000. I bought my first house when I was 35. I am a Single Mom by Choice and I raised 2 young men (now in the early and mid 20's) here. We always had everything they needed and they also played a LOT of club sports as well as being on town and school teams. We had 2-week vacations on Cape Cod as well as a week in Vermont every summer, we skied in the winters and traveled to visit friends in the UK and elsewhere. One went to college with ROTC and the other just graduated from our very highly rated state university- I was able to fund his college with my 529 savings. I have always been frugal but not cheap. Saying $140K is at the poverty level for a family of 4 seems absurd, even in a place like Boston.
@laura, congrats on doing all that! It's quite an achievement.
When you say it seems absurd, are you basing that on your experience or prices and wages now? I couldn't tell from your post.
@laura, hi. How much would your house sell for now? 30 years later?
We just left Greater Boston. $140,000 is enough to struggle there now with 4K a month rent.
@laura, Did you have employer-provided health insurance? For you and your children?
I grew up poor. But I didn't know it. My Mom never once said "We can't afford it." She always said "Let's see what we can do about it." So a 1 pound burger was called steak and going a couple. hours to a Tiger game in Detroit was called vacation. This is a fabulous post to be read whenever we stress about economic times. I do see homelessness on a regular basis because I do footcare for neighbors at a downtown church. But many of the neighbors have a wonderful attitude because they choose to be thankful.
@Nancy, I love this attitude shift! Contentment is something our society has moved far away from. I think in many ways social media has been a downfall for many. Obviously, blogs like this one are a gift! So many influencers make us all feel like we need to be living the high life and that’s just not what life is all about. We’re setting future generations up for unreasonable expectations in life, I fear.
@Haley, Your phrase "blogs like this one are a gift" could be a banner at the top of Kristen’s daily post. Indeed her blog is a gift to us, inducing calm and sense in a chaotic world.
@Haley,
Social media is a downfall in my opinion for the most part. Yes, there are good gems (like Kristen) but the negative far out weighs the positive.
I think that we need to be having the unwanted discussions about social media versus reality with our children/younger generation. I know myself I don't understand the whole influencers thing (& that's ok), the fact that we as society allow so much unrealistic information & behavior or the now AI that posts things that are not even real.
@Regina, I couldn’t agree more! I’m so thankful to have been raised in a time where none of this was even around yet! (Child of the 80’s)
Just a recommendation to look into...I took iron for years and finally responded much better to Mega food blood builder iron supplements than other prescription or otc brands. It natural and easy on the stomach too.
While there are places where true poverty exists, the majority of U. S. folks only suffer a poverty of mind, a poverty of attitude. Focusing on the gratitude is very important for this type of poverty.
Re #1: that sum is for s moderately comfortable life. The poverty bit was mostly added by newspaper headlines. It's wrong but it's usefully wrong: it's wrong in a way that starts a good discussion.
For example, did you know that the current poverty line is defined as a multiple (3x?) of the cost of a food list that was fixed around the 1960s? Now that's something worth discussing. Not only has the bundle of goods changed since then (cell phones, need for child care) but relative prices have changed beyond recognition (ahem*cost of housing*ahem).
@WilliamB, I agree -- so many actual good discussion points in the article.
I've seen articles that were written along these lines solely being click bait, but this one has a thoughtful feel and I don't believe the actual article was written with a click bait goal.
@WilliamB,
In the metropolitan area in which I live, the median price for a home is $400,000. With taxes and insurance, the monthly mortgage payment hovers around $3300. When budgeting, they often say your housing should be about 1/3 of your income. Thus, in order to buy this ordinary, a buyer would need annual income of about $120,000.
@Bee, Monthly mortgage payment is just the START of the calculation. Property insurance is sky high (certainly in places subject to fire, hurricane, tornado damage, assuming you can even get it, which you will have to if you have a mortgage); local property taxes will vary location to location but are very high in some areas; general maintenance costs keep increasing and tariffs and immigration issues are affecting furniture and building and renovation costs; utility bills (especially electric -- thanks data centers!) are skyrocketing.
@Bee,
And, to state the obvious, in many places, including where I live, there are no homes available for $400,000.
Whenever I read about stuff like this, I wonder if any high schools are teaching budgeting and real life accounting. Like this career might pay this and this style of living will actually cost this. Here is how a simple loan works. And here's how to do basic car repair, and sewing repair, and basic cooking. Here's how to fill out the most basic tax return. Those skills to me are much, much more important than say, Algebra II or even something fun like band. We can't as a society expect parents to teach these things, because unfortunately they do not do that in a lot of homes. Or parents don't have time because they are working two jobs. Here's how much you lose when you buy a new car vs. a used car. I know this material could cover a year for a course.
@Sarah C., Just this year the high school my daughter attends added a required a semester long personal finance class.
Students must take it in junior or senior year. I recall taking a similar class in high school 25 years ago and welcome this addition.
@Sarah C.,
Home economics, or any kind of real-life budgeting course, died out years ago. Some schools may offer it as a high school elective. But it needs to be mandatory!
I believe Dave Ramsey's organization has a high school course, based on his principles, that schools can adopt. But his methods are considered controversial; he teaches people to shun credit cards. That'll go over like a lead balloon with school board members who are in the banking industry. Banks and credit card companies probably also offer their own educational material, but it may not be very objective.
@AmyLiz,
Wonderful news!
@Sarah C.,
Great idea for a high school and/ or college course!
@Fru-gal Lisa, Plus, at least in Britain, your credit score actually goes up if you get a credit card, because it shows you can pay it off every month or in x amount of time
@Fru-gal Lisa,
my youngest (who just graduated in June) didn't have any Economic or Finance class, but he Mom & real life skills. Now in teen college classes teen just finished Personal Finance class where they talked about & did lessons about real life money skills. Teen said only thing new learned was about stocks, which I never talked about (as Ex let broker do what wanted & I had no say).
Of course our local Credit Union has a great financial program that helps young members learn age appropriate financial information. They also make offers to young members (with parental approval) for debit card & credit cards at appropriate ages.
@AmyLiz, it was likely called Consumer Ed. Still a required course in my state if you want to graduate. You can do independent study and take the test - which my younger kiddo did.
The "losing help as you move upward" mentioned in the article is definitely a challenge. We've faced pieces like that in our own life. My friends who live just below the government defined poverty line are eligible for many things free and reduced that we are not because we land just a couple hundred dollars above the poverty line. (But our health and dental insurance/plans all come out of our take home pay, so that skews things even more because their healthcare is covered by Medicaid/work, so there's an even larger income difference for our two families.)
While they visit the children's museums and zoo for free/$2 and are approved by a local organization to have grant money for karate and therapy and private school because of their income level, we simply go without or shovel more driveways to earn some extra money.
@Dorinda & 3 boys, addendum to say that we don't consider ourselves poor nor am I complaining.
But our minor frustrations (i.e. not being able to move our struggling, bullied son into a school that would be a better match for him while our friends who make much less could do that) give me a glimpse into what it would look like for a family that starts working more hours and earning more money and then loses their child care and housing help as a result.
@Dorinda & 3 boys, this may be the most useful comment on the blog today. There is a line not worth crossing for poverty-level benefits?
@Dorinda & 3 boys, It's like you fall off a cliff (with no safety net) as your punishment for earning a little extra income. So frustrating.
Welcome to middle age, Kristen, with the pill container. They are mighty handy for helping stay organized.
The Episopcal priest I worked for long ago used to say that poverty of the spirit was the hardest thing to overcome. That church had personal budgeting classes for members, as it was not a wealthy congregation. (We did not do Dave Ramsey because it was too expensive and instead a member who was an accountant created a little curriculum.) And for some years I was in an adult Sunday school class that discussed at length the concept of wants versus needs and how not recognizing the difference can lead one into all kinds of trouble.
@Ruby, and everyone,
Donna Freedman, who is no longer very active on her Surviving and Thriving blog, has a good book series, Your Playbook for Tough Times (Vols. I and II) that can be downloaded or ordered. (Yes, she charges for it.) But she has a lot of wonderful ideas and her discussion of needs vs. wants is something every person should learn and adopt. It would be a good basis for a personal finance course, sort of an updated Tightwad Gazette.
@Fru-gal Lisa, I continue to follow and enjoy Donna's blog. Even though she's not posting as often these days, she's still very much out there.
@A. Marie, Donna is wonderful. Her back catalog of writing is such a great resource for anyone looking to get frugal.
While I don't think $140k is a true poverty line in most places, I can see that as being an average minimum to be able to live comfortably and able st set aside a little so that emergencies aren't catastrophic.
My family of five makes about half of that, and we live in an area that is probably in the middle for cost of living in the USA. We get by, but aren't able to really save, and some previous medical expenses have us in debt. We only get by because we purchased our home years ago so our mortgage is less than half of what the average rent would be. We drive older, paid off cars, buy most things second hand, cook at home, have cheap phones and plans, diy everything we can, and sell things online for extra money. We also live close to work and school, so there's minimal commuting expenses. If the roads around us were more pedestrian friendly, we would walk or bike more. As it is, we could walk to work and school if driving wasn't an option. Even so, we're barely scraping by.
I think $100k would be comfortable for us living as frugally as we currently do, so for someone having to pay today's rent or mortgage prices, longer commute expenses, or not having the ability to diy pretty much everything, $140k seems a reasonable minimum for a family to live modestly without being one emergency away from complete disaster.
I think it all comes down to priorities for the most part, and choosing where to spend and where to cut back. We bought our first home (and current home) in 2009, and despite being relatively newlyweds, bought a bigger house than we "needed" at the time. However, adding 2 children in the meantime, and then the pandemic hit and we now work from home, our house is the perfect size and we were able to grow into the house, which is now the perfect size for our family. Staying in it allowed us to prioritize paying it off (HUGE win), and although we don't want our split level to be our forever house, we aren't in a rush, and can wait until the markets will (hopefully) be more in our favor in the future.
Through all of this we did also prioritize taking trips here and there and doing things with our kids while they want to do things with us! We mostly cook at home, and have always prioritized stocking up on sale items to get us through the times when those same items cost double or more.
Having grown up "poor", I think it is hard to shake that mindset, and I see myself reminding my kids how lucky they are that they don't have to see fights about money like I did. Sometimes it is hard to make myself realize that we do have wiggle room now, but that is still not a reason to not cook at home, thrift clothes, mend items, and be mindful of what we bring into our home.
Living in SD, our cost of living is nowhere near a lot of areas, but at the same time it has significantly increased over the years from what it was. No way could we even attempt to afford the house we live in if we were to purchase today!
Interesting article and discussion, hard to know what to believe, but for sure, one size NEVER fits all. I’m thankful for all the tips on frugality and hope that people earning under $140,000 have time to learn to stretch dollars and distinguish wants from needs.
Like most people these days (it seems), I am low in Vitamin D. My PA said for people like me who don’t take pills, it works to take a handful once a week. WHAT??!? Yeppers, that’s what she does, and so now I do it that way too. D is a fat-soluble vitamin, so we don’t pee out the extra. She said that after 6 months or so my D levels will be adequate. More will be revealed in the fullness of time. . .
For your pill taking try tying to a meal or set an alarm. Works for me.
I agree with you 100%!
Here’s a truck for pill taking. Put them by your toothbrush or toothpaste. You brush twice a day, so pairing brushing with pill taking (once or twice a day) really helps
I think it's especially important to raise children with this attitude -- to focus on what they can do. Part of this, I think, is allowing children to fail at times, so that they know what that feels like, and also what it feels like to pick themselves up and try again.
@Cindi,
I agree, it’s so important to help children build resilience so they can meet whatever may come.
@Cindi,
Agree! I know as parents we want better for our kids than what we had & of course we want them to succeed in life. But part of succeeding is learning what not to do/failure & learn from that.
Too many people who have never experienced any kind of failure are unable to handle it when it happens in adult life because they never learned coping skills, how to reassess to look at from different perspective or learn to just start again.
That number feels really high to me, but I don't live in a high-cost-of-living area. I think Denise's idea of regional poverty line incomes is a better idea.
I remember Amy Dacyzyn wrote about the "average cost to raise a child," in which she poked holes in the government numbers. Also, as I recall, most people took that number to mean "per child," when in reality, adding a second child doesn't automatically double the cost of raising one child.
Since DH and I never came close to earning $140,000 even with our salaries combined, and since I know what a number of salaries are for public officials here and know the salaries of engineers I work with now and used to work with at my last job, I feel sure a family here making $140,000 would be comfortably distant from the poverty line. One won't drive luxury cars, have a pool and have kids in private school, but one can manage around here on that amount.
The amount we might lose annually due to the loss of pennies is not going to keep me up at night, I see.
I use a pill dispenser. I have a supplement (doctor ordered) that I take every other day and one I take every three days. I would NEVER keep up with that without a dispenser. Also, I use masking tape to tape the lids shut and take my pills with me easily when I travel. They are ready to go when I arrive.
And - yes, smart phones or a computer and the internet are basically a need, these days. I get so aggravated with every doctor, bank and business trying to get me to "add the app" to communicate with them. No! I don't want a million different apps on my phone!
@JD,
those apps need constant updating & take up storage space. I have gone to deleting the app & just logging in online (same info). I keep apps I use regularly that are not available online.
I am glad you qualified your response. I live in perhaps the #1 or #2 most expensive city in the United States. I have never made anywhere near $140,000 a year.
Perhaps the use of the word "poverty" is where a part of the feelings we may have about such an article and declaration may come from.
Semantics. The issue is, at heart, whether you can afford "reasonable" and "available" housing, heating, electricity, gas and a car (with insurance) if you need one, where you live anywhere.
Money is ALWAYS relative. Labels based on set amounts have always been inaccurate and misleading. (Ask someone working for minimum wage whether or not they are at the poverty level. They may be able to afford housing because they live with multiple people who contribute $$$ for rent/mortgage and your basic things like heat, electricity, water, where applicable. But it doesn't mean they don't need help.
Also, you have no idea how much a family of four might pay for taxes, because deductions vary greatly and taxes (state, city, federal) can be a huge chunk of that $140,000. And then there is the cost of health insurance, which can be several thousand dollars a month for a family of two adults and two children. PLUS: Tons of out of pocket healthcare/medical expenses.
I can see why people have issues, especially if you are making a low minimum wage per hour. But there is also the issue of whether someone can get, and hold, a job that generates that kind of income. It always starts with what kind of job you can get.
I don't think aspersion should be cast on folks who make that kind of money and spend wisely (and try to save everywhere they can as we all do) and try to monitor expenses. It is not for us to judge when we have no idea what their expenses are or how they spend.
I know plenty of people who don't spend carefully no matter what they make. And go into huge debt for nonessential items.
I, too, am not referring to people who are in dire straits through no fault of their own. You cannot save what you don't have to save in the first place.
I use only one barometer to judge about what is going on with money around the nation: What is happening in my own home. I am totally aware and concerned about the impact on others (I think Congress who voted against SNAP should loose their jobs. The same for those who have no plan, good or bad, to replace the ACA. They are heartless people who are condemning others to ill health and even death. )
I don't need to compare myself to anyone else. It is my circumstances and situation that is relevant. It is discouraging but instead of bemoaning it, I educate myself and take action to encourage/support whatever CAN be done. It spurs me on to ensure that candidates who will protect our lives are running and win. (I don't care for party labels at all and don't use them. They are limiting. What is the platform? Republicans today, for example, in no way resemble the Republicans of decades, if not centuries, in this country's history.)
I am tired of people who have tough lives, work to the best of their ability, often multiple jobs that leave them physically drained and sometimes ill, but still can't make ends meet, being judged and stigmatized by those who very often have never known what it is like to not be able to afford housing, food, or clothing.
It is our job as citizens to number one: Help by helping folks get education, jobs, housing, food when they need it. 2: Give of ourselves via money or other donation (food, clothing, household goods, etc.)
The more we have, the more we should share/give to others in need. The lack of charity in this country today is what is truly upsetting. Need something? Ask your fellow man, the poorest will find a way to share. Forget asking the rich. Not all but many. You'll get superiority and judgment many times over.
I love the idea of, if you can afford it, creating an amount from your budget, monthly or otherwise, to give to someone who specifically needs cash or a type of donation.
I am someone who has known true poverty and even a period (brief) of homelessness (but not being in the street, being forced to live briefly with someone we knew who didn't want us around even though so called "Family.") and worked multiple jobs at different times in my life to make ends meet and I have never lived a fancy lifestyle (I was lucky that my work allowed me to travel on the company dime, otherwise I could not have afforded and I am college educated with extensive experience in my field.)
I know how hard it is to make ends meet, even at $140,000. Even if those two kids are not in private schools. If you live in NYC for example, if you can even get an apartment at this low price, say a one bedroom is a minimum $4,000 and up a month plus utilities (which can be astronomical). You make $140,000 but you take home maybe $6 to $7,000 month. Add food, health insurance, etc. and you're still not talking about a lot of discretionary income or living a luxury lifestyle.
So, depending where you are you may still not have an affordable life.
I think the use of "poverty" here is the problem. It's apples and oranges.
I didn't click on the article and stopped reading comments here when they seemed to get a bit contentious for my tastes, so I'll just say that I believe affordability in America is a real issue for many people as well as a crisis for some.
Thanks for including the correction to your math from the penny post. That makes more cents - er, sense.
Such an interesting discussion, and I agree that the idea of poverty/wealth is extremely tied to where one lives. I also think that poverty means so many different things to different people that it isn’t the best word to use. You could be living a frugal, modest life with food on the table and a roof over your head, and still be just one lost paycheck away from financial disaster. If that isn’t poverty, it is certainly poverty – adjacent.
I want to push back a little bit on the idea that going to community college is the solution to higher education costs. For some careers, it is – nursing is one, teaching possibly another. But there are some careers, often higher paying, for which one must start taking specialized classes from the freshman year, classes which are seldom or never found at community colleges. Two of my three children are pursuing such careers. For example, you do not transfer into a nationally ranked school of engineering as a junior with two years of community college under your belt. You would have to start all over with freshman engineering classes, and there’s no savings in that.
And for those who enjoy attending professional symphony concerts, I can almost 100% assure you that there is not a musician on stage who started out in community college. It’s not possible. Professional musicians not only need to attend top tier conservatories or music schools from freshman year on, they most likely have already had many years of very expensive private lessons from highly qualified teachers. As an aside, this very issue is what set my eyes rolling when reading Amy Dacyzyn’s thoughts on the cost of child rearing. We spent a LOT of money on very expensive private lessons and musical instruments for our three children because it was a top priority for us and enabled our children to gain the pleasure that performing music at a very high level can be. Would we have been poor if we couldn’t afford such lessons? No. But not providing those to our children was not an option.
@Meg in SoTx, just a note that there are different programs in some states. For example, in Charleston, SC, the Citadel works in hand with the community college. You do two years at the technical school then transfer to the citadel for the last two for engineering degrees (non-cadet). I recognize that this isn’t everywhere, but as a mom of two boys that searched for degrees that could transfer …it is possible. My younger son did one year during high school at a community college with the plan of transferring knowing that his future school would accept his credits. I think the bigger point is there are always options if you have to take a non-traditional path to get where you want.
@Marlena, that’s a good point. Location is everything.
Unfortunately we don’t live in South Carolina. Our son attended the flagship public university (top 20 engineering program) which sadly does not need to buy good students, so we paid sticker price. I recognize how privileged we were to be able to do this, but as a musician married to a teacher, it was a stretch.
@Meg in SoTx, Amy had the luxury of her husband being in the military - health/dental/vision being the #1 item in my mind. I believe they had a housing stipend also. I enjoyed her Tightwad Gazette but I never felt the need to go to the extent she did. Then again, she wanted to be a SAHM which I chose not to be.
@Selena, luxury??? As a military spouse, I’m not sure I’d call it that. The military member gets vision, dental, & health; the family member only gets that when stationed outside the US. Inside the states everyone gets health, but not vision & dental. Yes, there’s a housing allowance or base housing, if available. The housing allowance is never enough to cover rent or a house payment and utilities. These are all called benefits, however, the reality of military family life creates its own hardships. Many families of enlisted personnel live(d) in poverty and options for spouses to work are often limited, especially overseas. I could write a book, but will stop. I loved being a military spouse, but it was hard.
There are very many sides to this topic. Just one perspective on access to internet: there are situations when it can be a lifeline to the people you love. I clearly recall the ashen face of my Iranian colleague when she was unable to contact her family this summer during the internet blackout - this was not due to financial restrictions ofcourse but it illustrates how dependent we have become on this utility
I think that number is high, but so much about finance is relative to location/family dynamics/health/etc that it is impossible to really give a blanket number. And money is so tied to politics that it is difficult to even have an open discussion about it without someone getting upset.
The pill organizer…I started using one a few years ago because I get in such a routine that I do things on autopilot and then can’t remember if I did them or not. The pill organizer lets me know I did take my blood pressure medicine when I can’t remember doing it. I bought my mom one this past year when she started taking heart meds morning and night. It has helped her a lot.
When I was a young married woman with a small child and a husband in school, with very limited income, here are the things we lived WITHOUT:
New cars.1 old car did the job.We shared it.We also lived near good public transportation.
A washer and dryer: I went to the laundrymat.I did not have my own washer till I was 26 and we moved into a nice mobile home rental when my husband got to grad school and it came with our rental.WOO HOO!!
Vacations: We lived near the beach . A day trip is all we could afford for a lot of years.
Cell phones:Not available yet but we would have gone without I am sure.
Printers/printer ink
Computers
Smart watches
Ipads
Laptops
Lots of extra clothes: I had 2 pairs of jeans and maybe 6 blouses.
Meals out. Are you kidding me??????
A house.We had to rent till we were 30.(Married at 19.)
Acrylic/gel nails,manicures,pedicures
Various waxing services, eyebrow and eyelash treatments,facials,massages.
Haircuts: Actually,I read tarot cards part time for $ at psychic fairs, and I had a client who traded a reading every 2 months or so for a haircut for me. I cut my husband and son’s hair.
Lots of expensive extracurriculars after school (No one really did this,back in the day,kids came home, played ball in the street, hiked,bicycled,went to Boy Scouts.)
Now, after both my husband and I graduated and got better jobs, we DID start spending money on some of these things. But frugality had become part of my DNA. We learned to save, and not overspend,so we were able to retire early.
Poverty is a state of mind as well as a state of finances.I never felt “poor” or deprived (well, hardly ever..) back when I was younger.Most of my young friends were in same boat and holidays were spent together having parties in our homes,with our kids, home baked items, trips to the local parks,the library,the zoo.Nothing fancy, and we were thriving and hopeful for our future.
It helped that it was “hippie times” and the no makeup natural look was in fashion!
I hope things shift in the USA so people can afford to go to school (tuition was a FRACTION OF WHAT IT COSTS NOW!!!!) and get decent jobs and get ahead.
I know it is not easy out there.But we also have an incredibly off kilter idea of what a “regular” life is these days and what things are important.
@Madeline, But that was then and this is now. For example, take after school programs. When I was a kid, there weren’t many of them and kids played in the street, nor were they necessary for college admissions. Now there are many such programs; in many many neighborhoods kids don’t play in the street anymore so if you want your kid to play with other kids, they need to participate in such programs, and also far more families had a stay at home parent to keep a general eye on things; and enrichments are sine qua non for admissions, and not just at the fancy schools but at the middling ones as well. The same extras[1] that got me admitted to a top five university as a high school *junior,* might (or might not) get me into that same university via regular admissions today.
[1] Varsity sport, JV sport, teaching at a ski camp, second foreign language, college-level calculus in 11th grade, extensive international travel, some volunteering, and some notable achievements in a field for which my university is known.
On the poverty line, I think it is hard for us gen X, boomer, older millennials to really visualize what gen Z and younger millennials are up against. We bought our house over 20 years ago in the Chicago suburbs for $300k. Our starter house was under $200k. My first new car was < $15k. My wedding for 125 people was about 20k tops. I got out of a private liberal arts college with $9k in loans. Today, that college is about 3x more expensive, my house is 2x more expensive, cars are at least 2x my first car cost, health care and groceries are far more expensive and we're eliminating many entry level corporate jobs due to AI. People making minimum wage in many places now have to rely on food assistance. Day care costs as much as a mortgage. It is exponent harder for young adults to become financially secure than it was for my generation x peers.
@Susan, exponentially!
@Susan, Good article here about AI taking jobs and its effect on Gen Z:
https://archive.md/GoPQQ
@Susan, I went through 4 years of undergraduate college (including a year abroad) on scholarships with $0 in loans. I looked up what it would cost today. Tuition, room & board = $350,000.00. 3 years professional school, that I paid for with scholarships, a part time job, and a $10,000 loan? Now it would be $233,100, exclusive of room and board, books, etc. I just don't know how kids and/or their parents manage this.
@Susan, when adjusted for inflation, my parents paid just about the same amount for my four years at an elite private liberal arts college as we paid for our son’s four years at an in-state public university.
$140,000 is more 3 times what we survive on a month and we've been doing this for several years. We rent a decent house, never skip a meal (although there isn't much meat involved), and even splurge on a Dollar Menu occasionally. It is an insult to think 140K is the poverty line. I could live like a queen on just half that. Perspective is an incredible thing.
I was a social service worker eons ago and my family was $100 annually over the poverty line. Were things tight sometimes? Yes. But I had a good foundation of financial literacy thanks to my dad and I was great at free things, like utilizing the library, going on picnic outings, etc.
I'm not saying that it's as simple as this and I know as you said, Kristen, that there are many variables, but I do think financial literacy is greatly lacking. I have several friends that based solely on income and fixed expenses should have adequate money left over and yet they turn to payday loans, credit cards and endless 2nd jobs to bridge the gap.
It can help to habit stack and put your pill sorter next to something you always use at the time of day you want to take your pills. For example: next to your coffee pot, breakfast meal prep, or toothbrush could be good spots for morning pills.
I take pills twice a day. I keep my morning pills, which are sensitive to humidity, in my vanity with my daily facial sunscreen. I keep my nighttime pills next to my toothbrush and I take them when I brush my teeth after dinner. If it wasn't for the humidity issues I would probably just keep it all in the bathroom.
Not judging but you live an area where most of your list is an option. Those is small rural towns don't have those options. Nor do those for whom a credit card is not possible.
You are correct $140K lets you live like a king in some areas where in others, it might just keep your head above water.
I can see where some resign themselves to it never getting any better.
When hubby and I were first starting out in 1989 a lot of people said we couldn't buy a house. But we did. Yes we had help from my mother in law but what she lent us was taken out of our inheritance. If she had needed more money for health matters at that time we were able to help.
A lot of people said we couldn't afford to live on one salary. We did. I must be the only mom after the birth of my son to catch Amy D on Donahue. What a beam of light! Yes we had some help from our families but we NEVER asked for it.
We were lucky that hubby had an aunt who had a beach cottage down the shore - as we say in New Jersey. It wasn't much and it had no AC but it was a get away if we needed it for a day or a weekend.
Want vs. needs. I wanted to stay home. I needed to stay home when both children where diagnosed with hearing loss, taking them to speech therapy, and others.
Same aunt with the beach house set up 529s for both our kids which the kids used toward college. My son earned a couple of scholarships and began college at our community college and moved on to our State university. Daughter went out of state and took out loans. She paid them all back during covid while working in a liquor store. Son paid his off.
It's what you need, not what you want.
I read the article which explained the methodology. And my take away was: the govt supports cut out very low and make the gap between the published poverty line (from member $32k) to $140k increasingly burdensome; that the safety nets drop away and the average costs to achieve the same outcomes outweigh the increased earnings.
I understand your point about hopelessness; but I did feel the article I read (which mightn’t be this one) was incredibly clear on their methodology and I supported their intent. Overall, govts aren’t helping the way they once did, when the poverty line was set at three times a basket of food.
I was terrible at remembering to take pills for my whole life until I started setting a daily alarm on my phone. It's been a true problem-solver!
I don’t think the article is far from the truth, at least for the noted demographic (a family with 2 kids requiring day care).
In any of the western states rent for a family is going to cost around 2K or much more in some areas, buying a house, especially without a downpayment is unattainable, but if you did manage to buy one, mortgage would be well over 3K.
Health insurance through your employer is either expensive with super high deductibles or extremely expensive, but still with deductibles and co-pays.
Food is very expensive, even if you cook all of your meals from scratch. And if you subscribe to any of the following: ethical pasture raised meat and eggs, quality milk and dairy products, organic or farm produce (even in-season or frozen), or if you are trying to eat the recommended amount of protein, or lifting heavy weights because that is what is now recommended to maintain your bone health and muscle mass, or you or your spouse have a physically demanding job, food costs go through the roof.
Even used cars a very expensive now, in some instances close to the cost of new cars. And repairs on newer cars can run thousands of dollars.
I could go on…
And we are not even talking about vacations, savings for retirement or big purchases or repairs.
Yes, it is true, people are making it on much less than that and here is how:
- Have a much lower mortgage because they purchased their house before the prices and the rates skyrocketed.
- Have help from parents for the downpayment or even the mortgage.
- Rent one house for multiple families.
- Live with their parents.
- Don’t have kids.
- Parents or relatives watch their kids for free.
- Their kids are older and don’t require day care or help contribute to family finances with part-time jobs.
- Forego medical insurance or don’t seek treatment when health issues arise.
- Eat cheap junk food or a lot of carbs to fill the bellies.
You get the picture.
people who don't take maintenance meds are the luckiest people in the world. to mangle a barbra streisand song. i have had tons of pills since my early 20s. both parents high blood pressure. so of course it was passed on to me. my m-i-l mid 90s had practically no pills until her leukemia diagnosis. she is still alive 4 years after diagnosis. what a blessing.
i don't have a pill case. i have a baggie with a.m. meds and another with p.m. meds. in their original containers when i go on vacay i pack the baggies and go. this is a system i developed after not having the right pills and the right amount of pills in my pill case too many times.
I learn a painful lesson about priorities as a young bride in the mid-60’s. Yes, I am old. My husband was a Highway Patrolman in Ohio earning $8000/year. All the Patrolmen made the same yet some had sporty new cars every year, some owned their homes, some traveled and others had 4 kids. It baffled me until I accepted two things. First, priorities and second credit cards of which we had none. In fact at that point we had not established credit at all. That was a freeing realization. It was up to us how that decent salary would be spent. Now retired and very comfortable I think most of our decisions were good ones.